LOL Guiliani

[Will]

Hey Monroe, I think your boy is confused...


WNBC catches Giuliani getting 'tripped up' by 9/11 activist David Edwards and Muriel Kane Published: Wednesday May 30, 2007

On Tuesday, members of a 911 truth activist group confronted former Mayor Rudy Giuliani at a New York fundraiser about the fall of the World Trade Center. "How come people in the buildings weren't notified?" asked one member of the group. "And how can you sleep at night?" Giuliani's politely-phrased response, caught by WNBC newscameras filming the event, was "I didn't know that the towers were going to collapse."

That response contradicts remarks the former New York City mayor made about being warned about the collapse during a phone interview with onetime ABC anchor Peter Jennings on September 11, 2001, as shown in a transcript WNBC obtained from the Giuliani 2008 campaign. Giuliani told Jennings, "I--I went down to the scene and we set up headquarters at 75 Barkley Street, which was right there with the police commissioner, the fire commissioner, the head of emergency management, and we were operating out of there when we were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse. And it did collapse before we could actually get out of the building, so we were trapped in the building for 10, 15 minutes, and finally found an exit and got out, walked north, and took a lot of people with us."

The following video from We Are Change and Infowars.com juxtaposes the two quotes.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Video_tribute_to_Giuliani_911_lies_0530.html

[Damarus]

And? I know nothing more than what you have written about this issue, but It seems if they found out without time to get out themselves, they wouldn't have had time to notify anyone else. Given he should've said "I didn't know in time" instead of "I didn't know" but it hardly makes it news...

Scraping the barrel this time Will :p

[Grog]

monroe still comes here? i thought tengil made him emo out?

[Zelandra]

Guiliani is the only presidential candidate that's worth voting for, lol.

[Inxile]

Guiliani is the only presidential candidate that's worth voting for, lol.


i don't follow US politic but i'd say his use of 9/11 to better himself in his campaign is worthy of not voting for him at all.

using a disaster for his own gain = not cool in my books

[Will]

And? I know nothing more than what you have written about this issue, but It seems if they found out without time to get out themselves, they wouldn't have had time to notify anyone else. Given he should've said "I didn't know in time" instead of "I didn't know" but it hardly makes it news...

Scraping the barrel this time Will :p

Hmm, with Guliani, yeah, I am scraping the bottom of the barrel...he isn't even a real republican. Pretend you are in charge of ny city on 9/11. Pretend you give an interview that day and state unequivocally that you were given notice buildings were going to collapse and you evacuated based on that warning. Everyone heard you say it. Years later, you are asked the question: did you receive warning that the buildings were going to collapse on 9/11. Your answer is now: no. I tend to use the "reasonable man" approach and this flub by Guiliani does not pass muster here. I cannot in any way imagine that he just answered the question wrong the second time. He wasn't being asked about his voting record, he was being asked about the MOST EXTRAORDINARY EVENT OF HIS NATURAL LIFE!!!!!! This is the cornerstone (not to mention the only reason he is even campaigning) of his campaign. How do you just get that wrong? Watch the clips and hear it in his own words.

[Will]

Guiliani is the only presidential candidate that's worth voting for, lol.

http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=42139 Vote for Ron Paul!!!!

[Will]

monroe still comes here? i thought tengil made him emo out?

I must have missed that.

[Craysh]

Kind of reminds me of Kennedy's Obama Bin Ladin lmao

[Perant]

yo giuliani is italian, that's all you need to know to vote for him.

[exiledone]

forget guiliani, make me mayor of mondrated so i can stop these stupid threads

[Monroe]

monroe still comes here? i thought tengil made him emo out?


More like he decided to start editing my threads, so I said fuck this piece of shit forum. But hey, since I stopped posting there have been like a WHOLE 5 NEW THREADS made here, and 2 of them are about me. So, whos loss is it that I stopped posting? I give this place few months tops before its dead.

About Guiliani, if that is the best bad thing you can come up with about him, you need to try harder. Look at his record with NYC education system, and he did appoint Bernie Kerik, etc etc. Quipping about some quote that was probably taken out of context just makes your position look weaker. Overall he did a pretty good job with WTC, and what do you mean the people werent notified? Everyone in the towers have been in the proccess of evacuation when they collapsed, a fair amount of people got out in time.

Oh, and I read some of Paul's foreign policy proposals. It reminded me of proposals of another president. Jimmy Carter.

[Articula]

Guiliani is the only presidential candidate that's worth voting for, lol.

You're kidding right?

[Will]

More like he decided to start editing my threads, so I said fuck this piece of shit forum. But hey, since I stopped posting there have been like a WHOLE 5 NEW THREADS made here, and 2 of them are about me. So, whos loss is it that I stopped posting? I give this place few months tops before its dead.

About Guiliani, if that is the best bad thing you can come up with about him, you need to try harder. Look at his record with NYC education system, and he did appoint Bernie Kerik, etc etc. Quipping about some quote that was probably taken out of context just makes your position look weaker. Overall he did a pretty good job with WTC, and what do you mean the people werent notified? Everyone in the towers have been in the proccess of evacuation when they collapsed, a fair amount of people got out in time.

Oh, and I read some of Paul's foreign policy proposals. It reminded me of proposals of another president. Jimmy Carter.

This isn't the best bad thing. This is the most recent bad thing. Also, it lends itself to other bad things which I will not speculate about at this time.

What is specifically being pointed out here is the foreknowledge the towers were GOING TO COLLAPSE. Who precisely gave this warning? How come the first responders and rescue folks didn't get it but Guiliani did? He said on 9/11 he was given notice. Recently, he said he received no notice. How do you reconcile that? That is why this is getting national attention; also because 9/11 is the centerpiece of his campaign and this sort of shakes that up.

Don't know too much about Carter, I was a kid when he was president. I do know that Ron Paul is gaining support at an enormous pace. I know his odds for becoming president have gone from 200-1 to 15-1 within the last 2 weeks. I know he received 91% of a straw poll vote on who the best republican presidential candidate is. Vote for Ron Paul.

[Monroe]

This isn't the best bad thing. This is the most recent bad thing. Also, it lends itself to other bad things which I will not speculate about at this time.

What is specifically being pointed out here is the foreknowledge the towers were GOING TO COLLAPSE. Who precisely gave this warning? How come the first responders and rescue folks didn't get it but Guiliani did? He said on 9/11 he was given notice. Recently, he said he received no notice. How do you reconcile that? That is why this is getting national attention; also because 9/11 is the centerpiece of his campaign and this sort of shakes that up.

Don't know too much about Carter, I was a kid when he was president. I do know that Ron Paul is gaining support at an enormous pace. I know his odds for becoming president have gone from 200-1 to 15-1 within the last 2 weeks. I know he received 91% of a straw poll vote on who the best republican presidential candidate is. Vote for Ron Paul.

O please. Do you remeber some particular statement that you said 6 years ago? I certanly dont really remeber what I said 6 freaking years ago, even the important shit I said that year. Stuff tends to slip your mind after 6 years, espacially when you have tons of other projects on your plate like Guiliani does. So, 6 years later, he forgot some particular detal, wow, he is totally incompetent and there is of course a conspiracy. Like I said there is tons of other better shit to attack Guiliani on, like his backtracking on second amendment rights, and his stance on abortion.

I wasnt even alive when Carter took office. So what? History is one of my interests, I read/know plenty about his presidency. Investors business daily is actually running a series of articles about him, yoou should check them out, they are pretty good read. http://www.ibdeditorials.com/Special3.aspx

[CharlieM]

Guliani wont even get the ticket, so not too worried.
I would be shocked if Ron Paul doesnt get on the ticked, hes the most sensible republican among them. Actually brings something to the table that I can respect, and thats common sense, reason, and logic.

What he talks about isnt thinly veiled bullshit thats being pandered to the mass because he thinks thats what will win him votes, he talks what he beleives, and most of it makes sense.

If he was a democrat hed be the next president, but I fear bush and the rest of his neo-con cronies have irreperably dammaged the public image of the republican party for at least 10-15 years.

[LordChowder]

yes, clearly guiliani knew all about 9-11 and it was a giant ploy by the us government to send us to war, ruin their public image and their own credibility, put us deeper in national debt all to run a failed policy, in not 1 but 2 wars. that way noone would suspect this to be bush's doing, since he got nothing but a lame duck presidency out of it. ITS ALL SO CLEAR TO ME NOW!

[Talorth]

yes, clearly guiliani knew all about 9-11 and it was a giant ploy by the us government to send us to war, ruin their public image and their own credibility, put us deeper in national debt all to run a failed policy, in not 1 but 2 wars. that way noone would suspect this to be bush's doing, since he got nothing but a lame duck presidency out of it. ITS ALL SO CLEAR TO ME NOW!

chowder you are my fucking hero.

[Monroe]

Guliani wont even get the ticket, so not too worried.
I would be shocked if Ron Paul doesnt get on the ticked, hes the most sensible republican among them. Actually brings something to the table that I can respect, and thats common sense, reason, and logic.

What he talks about isnt thinly veiled bullshit thats being pandered to the mass because he thinks thats what will win him votes, he talks what he beleives, and most of it makes sense.

If he was a democrat hed be the next president, but I fear bush and the rest of his neo-con cronies have irreperably dammaged the public image of the republican party for at least 10-15 years.

charlie noone gives a shit what the fuck you think you arent even american. So go blow a kangaroo and get kicked out of your countrys shitty military force some more, when people discuss some australian shit, then you can talk.

[Grog]

YEAH CHARLIE! that's like talking about sweden when you live in america!

[Monroe]

YEAH CHARLIE! that's like talking about sweden when you live in america!

I dont talk about sweedish polittics you fucken noob. I just say thaat the coantyr as a whelole sucks which is true. I dont know the first thing about sweedish politics, its porlbably some pseudo ccommunistic faggot leading that piece of shit .

[Damarus]

I dont talk about swedish politics you fucking noob. I just say that the country as a whole sucks, which is true in my opinion. I dont know the first thing about swedish politics. There's probably some pseudo communistic faggot leading that piece of shit.Face it, Grog burned you. (Also corrected a few errors coz yer... it was just really awful to look at.)

[CharlieM]

charlie noone gives a shit what the fuck you think you arent even american. So go blow a kangaroo and get kicked out of your countrys shitty military force some more, when people discuss some australian shit, then you can talk.

I can see how you would be raged by the fact that I seem to know more about the state of politics in your own country than you do, being that I dont even live there, but try and keep those rage-a-hol levels down, they make you say some really silly things that dont gel well with your already awesome public image on these boards marci.

[Mordenkainen]

I dont talk about sweedish polittics you fucken noob. I just say thaat the coantyr as a whelole sucks which is true. I dont know the first thing about sweedish politics, its porlbably some pseudo ccommunistic faggot leading that piece of shit .

The stupid cunt got so raged that his fingers started mashing the keyboard too fast.
His brain couldn't keep up lol.

[Grog]

sorry, never realised that a country's neutrality during a world war had nothing to do with politics

ps. <3 ily

[Monroe]

I can see how you would be raged by the fact that I seem to know more about the state of politics in your own country than you do, being that I dont even live there, but try and keep those rage-a-hol levels down, they make you say some really silly things that dont gel well with your already awesome public image on these boards marci.

Dearr charile, nothing you cann dsay will ever make me ragee because you are simply too benerhth me for me ot take you seriosusly. Dont forget scrub, I have played lineage 2 for quite sometime with you, I know exactly what a loser you are. Stop fronting. But foor the record you dont know wshit about politics up in here in america because if you seriously think ronn paul will win the primary you are fucken stuupid. Despite his presence on the internet, which really doest matter that much, because im sure that he totally caers that some piece of shit in australia lol likes him, his influence among the wealthy, the elderly and other IMPORTANT demographics is like shit. Look at the money he raised for his ppresidential campaignn all he goot so far is like 600k. Guilianni goot 16m. Perhaps you should send him a doonation, but I dont think he can take monopoly money or whatever teh fuck you have in austrelia.

P.S. You should be the last to talk aboout public image, charlie. Do you even have any friends left in L2? Lets not forget me and ICA made up at the end, since majority of faggots(like you) left, and they recruited some cool people, and allied First. I talked to IC people, the ones who were in the clan before and when you left, they all pretty much hate you, and think you are a diishonorable piece of shit thief along with nell, rygor etc etc. Nice public image there, charlie.

[CharlieM]

Dearr charile, nothing you cann dsay will ever make me ragee because you are simply too benerhth me for me ot take you seriosusly. Dont forget scrub, I have played lineage 2 for quite sometime with you, I know exactly what a loser you are. Stop fronting. But foor the record you dont know wshit about politics up in here in america because if you seriously think ronn paul will win the primary you are fucken stuupid. Despite his presence on the internet, which really doest matter that much, because im sure that he totally caers that some piece of shit in australia lol likes him, his influence among the wealthy, the elderly and other IMPORTANT demographics is like shit. Look at the money he raised for his ppresidential campaignn all he goot so far is like 600k. Guilianni goot 16m. Perhaps you should send him a doonation, but I dont think he can take monopoly money or whatever teh fuck you have in austrelia.

P.S. You should be the last to talk aboout public image, charlie. Do you even have any friends left in L2? Lets not forget me and ICA made up at the end, since majority of faggots(like you) left, and they recruited some cool people, and allied First. I talked to IC people, the ones who were in the clan before and when you left, they all pretty much hate you, and think you are a diishonorable piece of shit thief along with nell, rygor etc etc. Nice public image there, charlie.

Resorting to mundane name calling when you cant think of anything tangible to say.
Pretty sad marci.

[Monroe]

Resorting to mundane name calling when you cant think of anything tangible to say.
Pretty sad marci.

ya, good comeback, guess you got nothing back to say, when your own "friends" think of you as a scumbag and thief. I would consider you calling me marci to be name calling too if it didnt come from a 14year old looking piece of shit, whom I could squash like a bug if I ever saw you irl.

[Grog]

physical threats now! OH ITS ONNN

[Monroe]

what?

[CharlieM]

ya, good comeback, guess you got nothing back to say, when your own "friends" think of you as a scumbag and thief. I would consider you calling me marci to be name calling too if it didnt come from a 14year old looking piece of shit, whom I could squash like a bug if I ever saw you irl.

Friends dont talk shit about me behind me back when I tried to remain neutral throughout the exodus, so try not to consider them as my friends you peabrain.

Marci is the toon I know you from, irrespective of what your forum name is here, how is that name calling ?

This is all getting a little off topic, but I would like to see how you think a war chest of money that has been accumulated by the minority wealthy will sway a majority vote from putting in someone who actually says what they truly beleive, as opposed to peddling the same bullshit that every other politik is saying in the vein attempts to win votes.

First republican debate, the assbites on Fox news were all saying that Ron Paul had lost it, and he was out of the race...they cut to the phone polls, oh...shock horror, he was fucking number 1 for the majority of the night.

That cant be right ??

Money can only buy so many votes, when the overwhelming majority of people have had enough of the shit that the neo-con spin doctors have done over the past 8 years and beyond, money doesnt mean a damn thing.

[Monroe]

Friends dont talk shit about me behind me back when I tried to remain neutral throughout the exodus, so try not to consider them as my friends you peabrain.

Interesting. Perhaps you should ask them what they think of you, and they will tell you to your face. O wait, they did, several times as I remeber. Dont fucken act coy, you know damn well that ICA hates your guts because you are a backstabing piece of shit.


Marci is the toon I know you from, irrespective of what your forum name is here, how is that name calling ?


I played monroe longer than I played marci. And I owned both catalyst and old ica on monroe. Everyone else calls me monroe, except you. Only time you bring up this marci shit is when you raged about something and have nothing better to say.


This is all getting a little off topic, but I would like to see how you think a war chest of money that has been accumulated by the minority wealthy will sway a majority vote from putting in someone who actually says what they truly beleive, as opposed to peddling the same bullshit that every other politik is saying in the vein attempts to win votes.

First republican debate, the assbites on Fox news were all saying that Ron Paul had lost it, and he was out of the race...they cut to the phone polls, oh...shock horror, he was fucking number 1 for the majority of the night.

That cant be right ??

Money can only buy so many votes, when the overwhelming majority of people have had enough of the shit that the neo-con spin doctors have done over the past 8 years and beyond, money doesnt mean a damn thing.

Well this just shows that you dont know shit about amercian politics after all. Here let me break it down for ya. Roughly 45% of the country is republican and 45% is democratic. The 10% left is undecided, and that 10% decides who will win the election. Those are the votes that the candidates are really competing for. The other 90% of the country will vote for whoever will be nominated by the republican or democratic party depending on their affiliation. So, unless the candidate wins the primary and gets nominated by his party , he will not win the election, because the most he can hope for, is some chunk of the remaining 10%, 90% of the people will vote for whoever their party nominates.

The person who usually wins the primary and gets nominated by their party is usually the top 2 people who raised the most money (for president and vice-president respectivly). Ron Paul is not gonnna be in the top 2.

[Monroe]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (2 members and 0 guests) monroe (http://www.themondrated.com/member.php?u=239), CharlieM (http://www.themondrated.com/member.php?u=278)

go dodge me some more, faggot

[Grog]

where's amercia?

[CharlieM]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (2 members and 0 guests) monroe (http://www.themondrated.com/member.php?u=239), CharlieM (http://www.themondrated.com/member.php?u=278)

go dodge me some more, faggot

:roll:
Of the people I had talked to post exodus, the only one who seemed to hate me to my face was Zeb. Either everyone else was real good at hiding their distaste for my decision to leave, or they didnt care that much, cause its just a game.


Wow...you killed people on a necro, in the height of the necro reroll train due to its immense ease and class power over all other classes, irrespective of player skill.

Impressive.

Im not going to argue with you about the political system in the US, cause the moment you start to pull statistics out of your ass, is the moment I realise that its like arguing with a brick wall.

Ignorance isnt just bliss marci, its power!!

[Damarus]

You can tell marci is really raging when he spells 9/10 words incorrect lol. I THOUGHT YOU WENT TO COLLEGE AND SHIT MAN? WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT ALL ROUND AMERICAN EDUKASHUN?

Lost in the rage :(

[Monroe]

:roll:
Of the people I had talked to post exodus, the only one who seemed to hate me to my face was Zeb. Either everyone else was real good at hiding their distaste for my decision to leave, or they didnt care that much, cause its just a game.

Nah, everyone in IC hated you. Maybe they didnt express is as profusly as Zeb did, but I cant think of anyone who said anything good about you. You kinda have to expect that when you steal 2 clan halls and leave the clan to join enemy when your clan is going down. Then again you always had some skewed view of the game, so Im not surprised that you think that people dont hate you when they actually do. Shit, you just called leaving your clan and joining enemy "being neutral". Why do you call is exodus anyway? You should call it what it really was, which is "we stole 2 clan halls and got the fuck out to join enemy, lol".


Wow...you killed people on a necro, in the height of the necro reroll train due to its immense ease and class power over all other classes, irrespective of player skill.

Impressive.


Got 1500+ kills on catalyst in c5 when necro was nerfed. Majority of them for 4%. Rolled your heros, your boss jewel decked out toons, etc etc. I dominated all your dagger/archer FOTM rerolls since those are the classes that got boosed. Kicked you all out of Giran/Aden etc, basically destroyed your clan to the point where they had to mass perition me for profanity because I fucked them up in every possble way. What necro reroll train are you talking abbout exactly? Who else rerolled necro? Only reason necro became popular was because of me. I was the first one to really own it up on the nec (o here comes the usual generic response naming some catalyst necs, except my pvp score is bigger than all their scores combbined). Then some people subbbed nec, but noone reallly played it in c5 when it got nerfed except me, and a few of my friends.

Etherway, you subbed FOTM hawkeye, and got what? Like 200pvps total? I had 3 day streaks when i got more than that.



Im not going to argue with you about the political system in the US, cause the moment you start to pull statistics out of your ass, is the moment I realise that its like arguing with a brick wall.

Ignorance isnt just bliss marci, its power!!

You actually think Ron Paul will be the republican nomination, and you are calling me ignorant? There is a higher chance of you getting accepted into your intellegence program than Ron Paul has of getting the nominationn.

[Grindrolas]

I KILLED YOU IN A GAME THEREFORE I AM > YOU IRL

[Talorth]

I KILLED YOU IN A GAME THEREFORE I AM > YOU IRL

HOLY SHIT TRUE.

[Monroe]

Nah Im better than charlie irl because im just a better person than he is. Im better than Grindolas too, game has nothing to do with it.

[Grog]

IM BETTER THAN HIM CUS IM BETTER THAN HIM
TAUTOLOGY IN YOUR FACE SON

[Damarus]

Lol monroe, I think I could go out on the street and find abo's looking for booze money that are better in real life than you. I'm surprised your ego hasn't caused a brain tumour yet...

[BLACK]

NO MONROE, I WILL NOT SHIT IN YOUR MOUTH

[Grog]

NO MONROE, I WILL NOT SHIT IN YOUR MOUTH#
LOLOMG HE ASKED U THT???

[HooB]

NO MONROE, I WILL NOT SHIT IN YOUR MOUTH

DOnt think you need to shit in his mounth since it seems to be so full of it already :roll:

[CharlieM]

Nah Im better than charlie irl because im just a better person than he is.

Seek help immediately.

[Monroe]

Seek help immediately.

Lol, charlie, you should talk. YOu act like such a little shit over a game, I dont even wanna know how you act irl.

[CharlieM]

Lol, charlie, you should talk. YOu act like such a little shit over a game, I dont even wanna know how you act irl.

You wouldnt know the meaning of Ironic if you landed in it.

[Will]

yes, clearly guiliani knew all about 9-11 and it was a giant ploy by the us government to send us to war, ruin their public image and their own credibility, put us deeper in national debt all to run a failed policy, in not 1 but 2 wars. that way noone would suspect this to be bush's doing, since he got nothing but a lame duck presidency out of it. ITS ALL SO CLEAR TO ME NOW!

I see you still make moronic jokes without any ability to change up your style.

[Will]

Analysis Last Updated: Jun 8th, 2007 - 00:34:30
Bracewell & Giuliani, the ‘guiding’ law firm on the privatization of Texas State Highway 121
By Jerry Mazza
Online Journal Associate Editor


Jun 8, 2007, 00:32

Email this article (?subject=Bracewell%20%26%20Giuliani%2C%20the%20%9 1guiding%92%20law%20firm%20on%20the%20privatizatio n%20of%20Texas%20State%20Highway%20121&body=http%3A%2F%2Fonlinejournal.com%2Fartman%2Fpub lish%2Farticle_2064.shtml)
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What, you didn’t know a candidate for the Republican presidential nomination is a partner in the Dallas law firm, Bracewell & Giuliani (http://www.bracewellgiuliani.com/)? It’s among the nation’s largest, with 400 attorneys and nine offices worldwide. And now B&G is exclusively representing the Spanish company Cintra through the privatization of Texas State Highway 121 (http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2007/03/26/story12.html?from_rss=1). Anybody want to call Congress and let them know? It’s right here in the linked March 26 Dallas Business Journal.
Yup, Rudy’s at it again, milking the old cash cow, the 9/11 sheriff routine to those sympathetic (rich and wannabe richer) Texans. The client, Cintra, has signed an agreement with the Texas Department of Transportation to finish the State Highway 121 toll road by 2011, a quarter century faster than possible through traditional sources (i.e. American workers), according to the Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT). What you should also know is that the toll road is part of the NAFTA Superhighway and construction of the Trans-Texas Corridor (TTC).
Independent Journalist Cliff Kincaid nails it in his article Giuliani Linked To “NAFTA Superhighway” (http://www.newswithviews.com/Kincaid/cliff149.htm): “Evidence shows that NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement involving the U.S., Canada and Mexico, is being expanded without congressional approval or oversight as part of a plan to create an economic and political entity known as the North American Union.” This is “the project that has people in Texas and around the nation up in arms.”
Kincaid quotes freelance writer Dianne M. Grassi, who originally broke the story of Rudy’s law firm on the TTC toll-road project (http://www.commonvoice.com/article.asp?colid=7123). She comments, “Most interesting to the whole story is not only has Giuliani’s involvement in the NAFTA Superhighway not ever having been publicly addressed, but how a foreign company is awarded the building of a mass highway system, versus maintaining it, for the first time in U.S. history, and negotiated by the law firm of the top Republican candidate running for President of the United States.”
Grassi also points out that “Cintra joined with San Antonio, TX-based Zachry Construction Corp. to help land the contracts, in which Zachry owns a 20% interest. The Cintra-Zachry proposal for TTC-35 includes a private investment of up to $6 billion in upfront payments for the complete construction, design and operation of a 316-mile toll road between Dallas and San Antonio, giving Cintra the right to set tolls and keep toll road profits for a period of 50 years, as it will for each road it has contracted..”
Grassi goes on to say, “The NAFTA Superhighway and its corridors will run from Southwestern Mexico through Laredo, Austin and Dallas, TX, into Kansas City, KS, serving as an inland customs port. The corridor will split in Kansas with one leg going to Winnipeg, Canada, through Omaha, NE. The other leg goes to Toronto, Canada, through Des Moines, IA, Chicago, IL, and Detroit, MI. . . .”
Additionally, Terry Hall, founder and director of Texans Uniting for Reform and Freedom (TURF), notes that “Giuliani clients with an interest in acquiring Texas roads and infrastructure have also invested in his presidential campaign.
“This could explain why Giuliani has spent so much time fundraising in Texas. The monied proponents of the Trans-Texas Corridor, of which there are many, would like to see this man become President.”
The big irony here is that Giuliani was opposed to NAFTA, that is, before he became a private business dude with global clients.
This kind of conflict and mixing of interests rolls into the criminal. Especially, as Australian journalist Mark Coultan points out that Cintra is a financial partner with an Australian company, Macquarie, on a toll-road project in Indiana. It seems that Macquarie acquired the business and assets of an investment bank known as Giuliani Capital Advisors (http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/macquarie-takes-the-bank-as-giuliani-runs-for-president/2007/03/06/1173166697217.html), which sold, according to the Washington Post, “for an undisclosed amount as Giuliani was preparing his run for president.” The amount is between $76 and $100 million, Coultan writes. This for a bank that ran up a net loss of $1.4 million after generous salaries to partners. The senior staff, who own about 30 percent of the stock, “will come with the deal.”
Coultan also points just how greedy Rudy can be: “Giuliani has also been criticized for taking excessive fees at charity events. One occasion involved the Queen Elizabeth Research Hospital in Adelaide, where his reported $200,000 fee left only $15,000 in net proceeds. After criticism, he held a fundraiser in New York which raised $75,000.”
Additionally, Dan Collins and Wayne Barrett pointed out, in an Alternet article, Why Rudy Giuliani Can’t Stop Cashing in on 9/11 (http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/41443).” They wrote, “Giuliani had never seemed particularly concerned about money -- he wouldn't have been scheming so desperately for a third $195,000-a-year term as mayor if wealth had been his top priority. But his sudden riches came in handy. His settlement with his former wife, Donna Hanover, in the summer of 2002 called for him to pay her $6.8 million over three years as well as child support. Hanover's lawyers estimated that Giuliani's income in 2002 was $20 million, a little more than half from speaking fees and book advances . . .”
Yet once Rudy got a taste of living large . . .”he quickly adapted to his new lifestyle, demanding first-class flights and accommodations for himself and his posse when he traveled and purchasing a $4 million summer house in the Hamptons for himself and Judy Nathan, whom he married in 2003. The couple also have an apartment on Manhattan's East Side worth more than $5 million, complete with Rudy's Yankee diamond rings displayed in wooden boxes, a lithograph of Winston Churchill above the fireplace, two white Churchill porcelain figures and a Joe DiMaggio shirt encased in glass. . . .”
So it all runs together. Rudy’s profiting from a great tragedy, selling out American interests to foreign interests, major conflicts of interest between his law firm activities and the funding of his potential run for the presidency, etc. A half dozen writers point out a common theme: Giuliani’s insatiable greed as a last step into a bent American Dream.
And once more I ask you as I did in Ground Zero illnesses come back to haunt Giuliani (http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2037.shtml), is this really the man you want to be the Republican presidential candidate, let alone your president? But then look at that clown race and you find the second runner, Mitt, making his own Times’ headlines, Romney’s Political Fortunes Tied to Riches He Gained in Business (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/us/politics/04bain.html?r=1$th&emc=&oreg=slogin). Is this déjà vu all over again, or just time for a major change in the kind of people we elect to lead this country? I sincerely hope the latter, as well as for a clean election for once.
Jerry Mazza is a freelance writer living in New York City. Reach him at gvmaz@verizon.net (gvmaz@verizon.net).
Copyright © 1998-2007 Online Journal
Email Online Journal Editor (editor@onlinejournal.com)

Top of Page (http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2064.shtml#top)

[Monroe]

Nice article Will, is that somehow supposed to show negative side of Guiliani, because other than some catch words like "greedy", fact wise I see nothing wrong with this article.

1. About highway: He is representing a foreign company in a bid to construct a highway in Texas. What exactly wrong with that? First of all that company is bidding to finish the highway 25years earlier than American firms. Obviously they are more efficient, and will doo it cheaper. Whats wrong with awarding a contract to the company that can do the job fastest and cheapest?

2. About speaking fees, living large etc etc. Once again, I see some empty insults, but factually there is nothing wrong. How EXACTLY is he cashing in on 9/11 tragedy? By speaking fees? How exactly speaking fees = cashign in on 9/11 tragedy?
ABout his lifestyle, again I see nothing wrong. He didnt take a law of pverty to become a mayor of new york, and if he can afford to live well... why not?

[Will]

Nice article Will, is that somehow supposed to show negative side of Guiliani, because other than some catch words like "greedy", fact wise I see nothing wrong with this article.

1. About highway: He is representing a foreign company in a bid to construct a highway in Texas. What exactly wrong with that? First of all that company is bidding to finish the highway 25years earlier than American firms. Obviously they are more efficient, and will doo it cheaper. Whats wrong with awarding a contract to the company that can do the job fastest and cheapest?

2. About speaking fees, living large etc etc. Once again, I see some empty insults, but factually there is nothing wrong. How EXACTLY is he cashing in on 9/11 tragedy? By speaking fees? How exactly speaking fees = cashign in on 9/11 tragedy?
ABout his lifestyle, again I see nothing wrong. He didnt take a law of pverty to become a mayor of new york, and if he can afford to live well... why not?

Maybe you think foreigners can do it better then americans but I don't. Frankly, your type of thinking has allowed our country to be eroded from within.

Live well? I have no problem with that. But when you profit personally off the erasure of American sovereignty (not to mention the worst terrorist event in US history), how do you call yourself a patriot. How do you have the audacity to run for public office when your own private corporation is personally handling the legal work for a foreign company to "OWN" an American road? Why on earth would you ever think it is smart to allow foreign interests to own US infrastructure? Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Monroe]

Maybe you think foreigners can do it better then americans but I don't. Frankly, your type of thinking has allowed our country to be eroded from within.

So what do you think about the fact that the company gave a quote that promises they will finish 25 (THATS TWENTY FIVE) years before any american company. What are they gonna do? Use magic?"


Live well? I have no problem with that. But when you profit personally off the erasure of American sovereignty (not to mention the worst terrorist event in US history), how do you call yourself a patriot. How do you have the audacity to run for public office when your own private corporation is personally handling the legal work for a foreign company to "OWN" an American road? Why on earth would you ever think it is smart to allow foreign interests to own US infrastructure? Doesn't make much sense to me.

How exactly has he profited from 9/11? GIve me 1 example where he profited from 9/11?

So, what? Now he is not allowed to represent foregners? Last time I checked he is a lawyer by proffession, I think thats his job, representing people and corporations. Perhaps you should go ask Ron Paul if he delivered any forigner babys, and if he would turn away a pregnant forigner mother if she came to him.
Why do I think it would be smart for foreign interests to own and operate American ifastractture? Because they are saying that they can built it and operate it quicker better and cheaper than American companys can.

[Grog]

ifastractture
oh christ will, you made him use a long word

[BLACK]

Grog, if you were any better, I would have to put a pencil through my left testicle.

[johkai]

You wouldnt know the meaning of Ironic if you landed in it.

how do you land in something as unsubstantial as a meaning and or thought?

[johkai]

Why do I think it would be smart for foreign interests to own and operate American ifastractture?

thanks for fucking making me spill my red bull ROFL

[CharlieM]

how do you land in something as unsubstantial as a meaning and or thought?

I guess you missed the subtle implication that he is a bag of shit.

[johkai]

yea i totally missed it, totally man.

[LordChowder]

guiliani plays poker with osama, they bet american lives. giuliani won it big. my eyes are open now.

[Grog]

Grog, if you were any better, I would have to put a pencil through my left testicle.
i'll..er.. take that as a compliment :s

[Will]

So what do you think about the fact that the company gave a quote that promises they will finish 25 (THATS TWENTY FIVE) years before any american company. What are they gonna do? Use magic?"

I think America should own it's infrastructure. I could give a fuck about how good this company is.

How exactly has he profited from 9/11? GIve me 1 example where he profited from 9/11?

You are kidding right?

So, what? Now he is not allowed to represent foregners? Last time I checked he is a lawyer by proffession, I think thats his job, representing people and corporations. Perhaps you should go ask Ron Paul if he delivered any forigner babys, and if he would turn away a pregnant forigner mother if she came to him.
Why do I think it would be smart for foreign interests to own and operate American ifastractture? Because they are saying that they can built it and operate it quicker better and cheaper than American companys can.

He can represent whomever he wishes to represent. My beef is with the proposed NAU and this is a HUGE piece of it.

[Will]

guiliani plays poker with osama, they bet american lives. giuliani won it big. my eyes are open now.

No, the Bushes play poker with Osama, Guiliani plays poker with Tony Soprano and Paulie Walnuts.

[Perant]

No, the Bushes play poker with Osama, Guiliani plays poker with Tony Soprano and Paulie Walnuts.

on that note, just to reiterate: giuliani is italian. election over.

[Monroe]

I think America should own it's infrastructure. I could give a fuck about how good this company is.

Sounds like you, yourself dont know what you want. In one thread you say you want smaller taxes and smaller government. In other threads you say you want congress and federal government to control damn nearly everything. Dont you think that finishing that road 25 years earlier would save the taxpayers a whole bunch of money, and also be a lot more convinient for them since they can use that road 25 years earlier????!!!


You are kidding right?


No, please elaborate how did Guiliani profit from 9/11?


He can represent whomever he wishes to represent. My beef is with the proposed NAU and this is a HUGE piece of it.

O god forbid we have free trade between countries, surely that is bad.

[Will]

Sounds like you, yourself dont know what you want. In one thread you say you want smaller taxes and smaller government. In other threads you say you want congress and federal government to control damn nearly everything. Dont you think that finishing that road 25 years earlier would save the taxpayers a whole bunch of money, and also be a lot more convinient for them since they can use that road 25 years earlier????!!!

You are mixing apples and alligators. The tax problem can be solved very simply, abolish the IRS and income tax as it is wholly unconstitutional. Ditch the Fed. Change our foreign policy to one that was constitutionally mandated (non interventionist). That will save a lot of money dude. No need for big government, in an any way shape or form. As a matter of fact, I consider big government unconstitutional. This country was founded as a republic afterall.



No, please elaborate how did Guiliani profit from 9/11?

http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-nyhen185217924may18,0,5668353.column
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/05/21/many-wonder-did-giuliani-profit-from-911/
http://www.alternet.org/story/41443/
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/06/01/giuliani-closed-off-streets-to-avoid-911-victims-families/
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/06/01/giuliani-heckled-booed-by-911-family-members/




O god forbid we have free trade between countries, surely that is bad.

Free trade is fine, erasure of sovereignty isn't.

[Damarus]

The tax problem can be solved very simply, abolish the IRS and income tax as it is wholly unconstitutional.Isn't the 16th amendment of your constitution: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration? How could it be unconstitutional lol o___O

[Talorth]

That amendment is not part of the original constitution. And I believe on some level it breaks another amendments....?

I'm not entirely sure, I don't know US history all that well.

[Damarus]

Stupid constitution...

[LordChowder]

well, i say we abolish the constitution all together! i mean, im with will here, who wants to pay taxes? shit yeah m8. who cares if we wont get federal aid for schools, highways, low income families, regulation of our food and water source, various fields of science, oh.. and um.. everything. taxes are just another pawn in the giant chess game that is the bush-dream of controlling the american people!

[Infamous]

People on welfare are, 99% lazy fat peices of shit.
Huge waste of government budget.

[Damarus]

I thought you had to be incapable of working, like Ill or something to be on welfare?

[Monroe]

You are mixing apples and alligators. The tax problem can be solved very simply, abolish the IRS and income tax as it is wholly unconstitutional. Ditch the Fed. Change our foreign policy to one that was constitutionally mandated (non interventionist). That will save a lot of money dude. No need for big government, in an any way shape or form. As a matter of fact, I consider big government unconstitutional. This country was founded as a republic afterall.

Lol dude, you are all over the place.
Ok, so we abolish IRS, where does the money for infastracture comes from if not taxes?
We change our foregn policy and stop protecting our interests abroad, to bad other countries bent on domination (Iran, Russia, China, etc etc) wont change their foregn policy, topple pro-American governments and align the world against us, and we will lose our interests and investments abroad. THat will just make us weaker.
Ditch the Fed, and then who is going to run monetary policy? Congress? Lol, half of them have credit so bad that they cant even get credit cards.




http://www.newsday.com/news/columnists/ny-nyhen185217924may18,0,5668353.column
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/05/21/many-wonder-did-giuliani-profit-from-911/
http://www.alternet.org/story/41443/
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/06/01/giuliani-closed-off-streets-to-avoid-911-victims-families/
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/06/01/giuliani-heckled-booed-by-911-family-members/



All these ariticles are, is a bunch of jealous pricks crying about hte fact that Rudy has made a lot of money from speaking fees. Here I will give you example of "profits from 9/11". Using your influence/connections to get some companies that you have interest in, lucrative contracts to work at ground zero. CLaiming that you somehow got injured at the attack when you didnt and get benefits illegally. Thatss profiting on 9/11. Every prominent politician does speking tours. Presidennt CLinton for example charges even more than Rudy, Koch had several tv shows after he stopped being mayor. What, just because he was around 9/11, he should what? Take a vow of poverty? I dont get it.




Free trade is fine, erasure of sovereignty isn't.

So establishing a free trade zone = erasure of sovereignty? ok.

[Will]

Isn't the 16th amendment of your constitution: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration? How could it be unconstitutional lol o___O

Not only was the 16th amendment never properly ratified (agreed on by 2/3 of the states), it doesn't grant the govt. (contrary to popular opinion) any right to collect income tax (direct) tax without apportionment. Nor is there anything in the IRS code to allow them to collect income tax on behalf of the federal reserve. Was waiting for someone to call me on this ^^

[Damarus]

Not only was the 16th amendment never properly ratified (agreed on by 2/3 of the states), it doesn't grant the govt. (contrary to popular opinion) any right to collect income tax (direct) tax without apportionment. Nor is there anything in the IRS code to allow them to collect income tax on behalf of the federal reserve. Was waiting for someone to call me on this ^^Haha you cheeky bastard :p You were waiting for me to fall into your trap :(

[Will]

Lol dude, you are all over the place.
Ok, so we abolish IRS, where does the money for infastracture comes from if not taxes?
We change our foregn policy and stop protecting our interests abroad, to bad other countries bent on domination (Iran, Russia, China, etc etc) wont change their foregn policy, topple pro-American governments and align the world against us, and we will lose our interests and investments abroad. THat will just make us weaker.
Ditch the Fed, and then who is going to run monetary policy? Congress? Lol, half of them have credit so bad that they cant even get credit cards.

The purpose of income tax is not to fund the government, it is to pay the government's debt. Fuck the government's debt imo. As to foreign policy, we were not founded as an empire. We have troops abroad in over 100 countries...wtf. We have tried to become one and it is time to scale that back. Saves lots of money. I don't think you really appreciate the situation our country is in with China, they could wreck our economy overnight. We are now beholden to countries we don;t agree with philosophically. That is what deficit spending has brought us. That is what the cost of our decades old foreign policy of take over the world has brought us. Has there ever been a country that could take over the world and hold it forever? No there hasn't. Every great empire has fallen. We are no exception to this historical rule.

As to the Fed, ditching them will immediately stop the insanity of inflation. Ridiculous concepts like fractional reserve lending and banking will go by the wayside. We will be forced to live within our means. There will be an adjustment period for sure, but it is an adjustment that is needed if we are to save our country.

All these ariticles are, is a bunch of jealous pricks crying about hte fact that Rudy has made a lot of money from speaking fees. Here I will give you example of "profits from 9/11". Using your influence/connections to get some companies that you have interest in, lucrative contracts to work at ground zero. CLaiming that you somehow got injured at the attack when you didnt and get benefits illegally. Thatss profiting on 9/11. Every prominent politician does speking tours. Presidennt CLinton for example charges even more than Rudy, Koch had several tv shows after he stopped being mayor. What, just because he was around 9/11, he should what? Take a vow of poverty? I dont get it.

Dude he went from a net worth of around 2 million before 9/11 to 30 times that after. Tell me again how he hasn't profited from 9/11? To call Rudy Guiliani a prominent politician (minus 9/11) is farcical. He was leaving office on his ass. He was ridiculed for adultery (multiple times), hiring illegal immigrants to work in his home, etc. 9/11 is the only thing that made him prominent. And what exactly did he do? Lead the city on that day? Well, what the fuck does that really mean? I think he managed to look good walking around with about 30 advisor's in tow that day, got on film doing it, and n ow, because of that, we are forced to debate his merits.
He parlayed that into, among other things, a presidential campaign. He starts so many sentences with "On 9/11...." I think he may actually have a speech impediment. It may not fit into what you think is profits from 9/11 but what exactly would you call that?

So establishing a free trade zone = erasure of sovereignty? ok.

You are going to have to explain your "idea" of free trade.

[Monroe]

The purpose of income tax is not to fund the government, it is to pay the government's debt. Fuck the government's debt imo.

Well... lets see, if we stop paying P&I on govt bond (govt debt), all of a sudden our currency wont be worth shit, and there will be hyperinflation. I thought you are against inflation.

As to foreign policy, we were not founded as an empire. We have troops abroad in over 100 countries...wtf. We have tried to become one and it is time to scale that back. Saves lots of money.

World changes, things change. The constitution also changes. Yes in the 1800s a country could theoretically sustain itself, but also lets not forget people at the time lived in huts, and drove horse buggys. That is no longer the case, you need resourses now that are only available by international trading. Perhaps you should move out of New York City, and go move to PA and join the Amish. They are still 100% self sustaining communtities and only trade between themselfs and keep away from everyone, and dont concern themselfs with things that happen outside their small communtiy.

O, lets not forget that they still live in huts and drive horse buggys.


I don't think you really appreciate the situation our country is in with China, they could wreck our economy overnight.

Actually, china cant wreck our economy overnight. Exactly how would they do that? Please give me a straight economic answer as to how they would exactly "wreck our economy", and not some conspiracy theory.


We are now beholden to countries we don;t agree with philosophically. That is what deficit spending has brought us. That is what the cost of our decades old foreign policy of take over the world has brought us. Has there ever been a country that could take over the world and hold it forever? No there hasn't. Every great empire has fallen. We are no exception to this historical rule.


Well for arguments sake there isnt a single country in the world with which we fully agree. But actually trading and such is allowing us to greatley influence other countries with our ways of life. SUch example is China, while it is still not free, the situation now is a lot better there and a lot more liberal, than it was before 1970s, before trade routes with US opened.


As to the Fed, ditching them will immediately stop the insanity of inflation. Ridiculous concepts like fractional reserve lending and banking will go by the wayside. We will be forced to live within our means. There will be an adjustment period for sure, but it is an adjustment that is needed if we are to save our country.


Go to community college or something and take micro 101, maybe then those concepts wont seem so ridiculous to you. O, and who would be in control of monetary policy if we ditch Fed?


Dude he went from a net worth of around 2 million before 9/11 to 30 times that after. Tell me again how he hasn't profited from 9/11? To call Rudy Guiliani a prominent politician (minus 9/11) is farcical. He was leaving office on his ass. He was ridiculed for adultery (multiple times), hiring illegal immigrants to work in his home, etc. 9/11 is the only thing that made him prominent. And what exactly did he do? Lead the city on that day? Well, what the fuck does that really mean? I think he managed to look good walking around with about 30 advisor's in tow that day, got on film doing it, and n ow, because of that, we are forced to debate his merits.
He parlayed that into, among other things, a presidential campaign. He starts so many sentences with "On 9/11...." I think he may actually have a speech impediment. It may not fit into what you think is profits from 9/11 but what exactly would you call that?


So, whats your point? What does him committing adultery, or hiring illegal immigrants
have to do with him "profiting off 9/11" as you claim? I think he walked around on 9/11 mainly because their emergincy command center was destroyed, and he really had no place to go until they apppropriated a new office. But if you think 9/11 is his only accomplishment, you are wrong.
As a prosecutor he put away countless mob figures including the top guys of all 5 top crime families in NYC. He basically for a while broke the mob stornghold in NYC, when he was a mayor he basically cleaned up NYC, and brought the quality of life up more than any recent mayor in its history.
He is basically one of the best lawyers alive right now, if you think he wouldnt be rich had 9/11 not happened you are delusional. Lets not forget that when he left his office and was worth purported 2m, majority of his life before that, he held government jobs such as prosecutor which really dont pay much.

You are going to have to explain your "idea" of free trade.

Callign off majority of tarrifs.

[Grog]

horse buggys
not sure why, but this made me chuckle

[Monroe]

not sure why, but this made me chuckle

Did you waste 2 hours spamming refresh just so oyu could insta-reply to my post?

[Will]

Well... lets see, if we stop paying P&I on govt bond (govt debt), all of a sudden our currency wont be worth shit, and there will be hyperinflation. I thought you are against inflation.

Of course I am against inflation. There will be an adjustment period. If you build a house on a faulty foundation, do you tear down the house and rebuild a solid foundation or do you just hope the house doesn't crumble (knowing all the while that eventually, it will)? Our money has been devalued quite substantially over the last 15 years. How long will it be before the rest of the world decides to embrace a more stable reserve currency? Can you imagine the state of the country when that happens?

World changes, things change. The constitution also changes. Yes in the 1800s a country could theoretically sustain itself, but also lets not forget people at the time lived in huts, and drove horse buggys. That is no longer the case, you need resourses now that are only available by international trading. Perhaps you should move out of New York City, and go move to PA and join the Amish. They are still 100% self sustaining communtities and only trade between themselfs and keep away from everyone, and dont concern themselfs with things that happen outside their small communtiy. O, lets not forget that they still live in huts and drive horse buggys.

Do you know how money is created? By borrowing, spending and out of thin air. Private sector borrowing will not be able to keep up with needed debt servicing (rates are going up). Soon, the Fed will have to print more money (to make up for the lack of borrowing from the private sector). that means, more inflation, less value. Anyway you slice it, we are on a runaway train. At least with the gold standard it was backed by something, we need to return to a more conservative form of government, not one that is like my ex with a credit card.

Actually, china cant wreck our economy overnight. Exactly how would they do that? Please give me a straight economic answer as to how they would exactly "wreck our economy", and not some conspiracy theory.

For starters, China has over 1 trillion in dollar assets. If they were to "dump" these assets, then the already weak dollar would plummet and the interest rates (beginning to rise) would skyrocket. THAT WOULD WRECK OUR ECONOMY!!!!!! What kind of effect do you think this would have on the average American? Low interest rates are the only thing that kept this economy afloat after Sep 11th. Slowly, the Fed has been trying to raise them.

Well for arguments sake there isnt a single country in the world with which we fully agree. But actually trading and such is allowing us to greatley influence other countries with our ways of life. SUch example is China, while it is still not free, the situation now is a lot better there and a lot more liberal, than it was before 1970s, before trade routes with US opened.

I don't have a problem with anything you have said here. The problem exists when we try to influence other nations with the barrel of a gun.

Go to community college or something and take micro 101, maybe then those concepts wont seem so ridiculous to you. O, and who would be in control of monetary policy if we ditch Fed?

First off, if I decided I needed college, I would have gone a long time ago. You laud what you were told in college as the truth. I believe in what I have learned on my own. You believe what you were told, I believe what I have researched. See the difference. Maybe you should have taken a critical thinking course so you could learn to challenge what you have been taught. You don't seem to have that ability. Who is right? We shall see.

So, whats your point? What does him committing adultery, or hiring illegal immigrants
have to do with him "profiting off 9/11" as you claim? I think he walked around on 9/11 mainly because their emergincy command center was destroyed, and he really had no place to go until they apppropriated a new office. But if you think 9/11 is his only accomplishment, you are wrong.
As a prosecutor he put away countless mob figures including the top guys of all 5 top crime families in NYC. He basically for a while broke the mob stornghold in NYC, when he was a mayor he basically cleaned up NYC, and brought the quality of life up more than any recent mayor in its history.
He is basically one of the best lawyers alive right now, if you think he wouldnt be rich had 9/11 not happened you are delusional. Lets not forget that when he left his office and was worth purported 2m, majority of his life before that, he held government jobs such as prosecutor which really dont pay much.

I'm saying that he was of ill repute prior to 9/11. Without 9/11, he would have retired a laughing stock. 9/11 has been very good to Rudy. As a prosecutor he put people in jail. Ok. That doesn't make him presidential material imo. He has no understanding of the problems we as a county face (least of all the threat of terrorism). During the debates he challenged Ron Paul on his assertion that the terrorists attacked us on 9/11 because of our foreign policy and presence in the gulf. Rudy was astonished because he had "never heard of that". Too bad the 9/11 commission and the CIA have been saying that "blowback" from our policies abroad directly contributed to the attacks of 9/11. Rudy, didn't you read the report? Ron Paul gave him a homework assignemnt after the debate (which Ron Paul won btw) yet in spite of that, he continually evokes 9/11 as though he had something to do with anything positive on that day. And people like you don't even question it. Amazing.

[Monroe]

Of course I am against inflation. There will be an adjustment period. If you build a house on a faulty foundation, do you tear down the house and rebuild a solid foundation or do you just hope the house doesn't crumble (knowing all the while that eventually, it will)? Our money has been devalued quite substantially over the last 15 years. How long will it be before the rest of the world decides to embrace a more stable reserve currency? Can you imagine the state of the country when that happens?

Ok, how about people who are near retirement, who have substansial savings and who are not planning to work much longer. All of a sudden everything they worked their whole life for is worth nothing, and they are old and unable to work, what are they gonna do? Adjust?
Im trying, im really trying to understand how exactly is this processing in your mind. All of a sudden, all of the banks will just say fuck the dollar, im gonna go buy me some pounds or some franks or some lira? It doesnt work this way, bud.


Do you know how money is created? By borrowing, spending and out of thin air. Private sector borrowing will not be able to keep up with needed debt servicing (rates are going up). Soon, the Fed will have to print more money (to make up for the lack of borrowing from the private sector). that means, more inflation, less value. Anyway you slice it, we are on a runaway train. At least with the gold standard it was backed by something, we need to return to a more conservative form of government, not one that is like my ex with a credit card.

Historically rates right now are at all time low. In the 70s prime was like 15-17%.


For starters, China has over 1 trillion in dollar assets. If they were to "dump" these assets, then the already weak dollar would plummet and the interest rates (beginning to rise) would skyrocket. THAT WOULD WRECK OUR ECONOMY!!!!!! What kind of effect do you think this would have on the average American? Low interest rates are the only thing that kept this economy afloat after Sep 11th. Slowly, the Fed has been trying to raise them.

Well, lets see... if they dumped that 1 trillion worth of dollars, first of all, they would lose a lot of money just on the transaction alone, because to sell that much at once they would dump it at substancial discount. But other than wiping out few currency traders and hedge funds who bet on dollar being strong, overall the effect on US economy would be positive. It would make American goods cheaper on world market, and would boost our exports, which would bring in jobs, actually. Also, that would make chinese goods more expensive compared to American goods, cut down chinese exports, increase chinese unemployment, and decrease their growth and would actually wreck chinese economy, while benefiting America.
THat is percicely why china is interested in keeping yuan weak against the dollar, and buying up Americann dollar to keep the world supply low, while keeping yuan interest rates artificially low, just to make chinese goods artificially cheaper than american goods.


I don't have a problem with anything you have said here. The problem exists when we try to influence other nations with the barrel of a gun.

THats because other nations are also exerting influence with a barrel of a gun, or worse. Its not pretty, but no real alternative.


First off, if I decided I needed college, I would have gone a long time ago. You laud what you were told in college as the truth. I believe in what I have learned on my own. You believe what you were told, I believe what I have researched. See the difference. Maybe you should have taken a critical thinking course so you could learn to challenge what you have been taught. You don't seem to have that ability. Who is right? We shall see.


So............. you basically are saying that a few conspiracy sites that you read are equivalent of a college education? Ok... my point is made here. My problem with this is that you dont seem to know what exactly you are rebelling against, and lack the basic understanding of a banking theory. And no, they dont just "tell" you shit in college. They prove it, ether by mathmatics, or empirical/historical evidence. Only places where they just spew shit without any proof is those conspiracy sites you seem to be a fan of.



I'm saying that he was of ill repute prior to 9/11. Without 9/11, he would have retired a laughing stock. 9/11 has been very good to Rudy. As a prosecutor he put people in jail. Ok. That doesn't make him presidential material imo. He has no understanding of the problems we as a county face (least of all the threat of terrorism). During the debates he challenged Ron Paul on his assertion that the terrorists attacked us on 9/11 because of our foreign policy and presence in the gulf. Rudy was astonished because he had "never heard of that". Too bad the 9/11 commission and the CIA have been saying that "blowback" from our policies abroad directly contributed to the attacks of 9/11. Rudy, didn't you read the report? Ron Paul gave him a homework assignemnt after the debate (which Ron Paul won btw) yet in spite of that, he continually evokes 9/11 as though he had something to do with anything positive on that day. And people like you don't even question it. Amazing.

Really? Ill repute before 9/11? He basically cleaned up midtown and times square, and took all those pornno shops and strip joints and replaced them with decent businesses so that you didnt have to cover your kids eyes when you walked down the street. The quality of life went up substancially during his reign as a mayor because he actually cared about minor things like graffiti that in the big picture may not mean much, but make the town look like shit. There wasnt a single year during his time as a mayor that the crime rate did not go down from a previous year. He sucessfully prosecuted ALL the top mafia bosses in NYC while being a district attorney.
Im not saying he is a perfect candidate there is tons of shit I disagree with him on, but he sure as fuck better qualified than some cooky old fuck who thinks that civil war never happened (or something along those lines, i dont remeber the exact quote).

[Will]

Ok, how about people who are near retirement, who have substansial savings and who are not planning to work much longer. All of a sudden everything they worked their whole life for is worth nothing, and they are old and unable to work, what are they gonna do? Adjust?
Im trying, im really trying to understand how exactly is this processing in your mind. All of a sudden, all of the banks will just say fuck the dollar, im gonna go buy me some pounds or some franks or some lira? It doesnt work this way, bud.

Not being an empire is going to free up a lot of cash. We should try to figure out just how much. With all that cash not being thrown away on imperialistic ideals, we can focus on cleaning up our own house.


Historically rates right now are at all time low. In the 70s prime was like 15-17%.

In the 80's prime was high as well. Keep in mind, borrowing at an adjustable rate (such as prime) is sorta like gambling without knowing the odds; especially, when the odds makers (Fed) aren't beholden to or part of the American government (i.e.: our supposed representation).


Well, lets see... if they dumped that 1 trillion worth of dollars, first of all, they would lose a lot of money just on the transaction alone, because to sell that much at once they would dump it at substancial discount. But other than wiping out few currency traders and hedge funds who bet on dollar being strong, overall the effect on US economy would be positive. It would make American goods cheaper on world market, and would boost our exports, which would bring in jobs, actually. Also, that would make chinese goods more expensive compared to American goods, cut down chinese exports, increase chinese unemployment, and decrease their growth and would actually wreck chinese economy, while benefiting America.
THat is percicely why china is interested in keeping yuan weak against the dollar, and buying up Americann dollar to keep the world supply low, while keeping yuan interest rates artificially low, just to make chinese goods artificially cheaper than american goods.

I won't claim to know China's economy well enough to predict what dumping the dollar would do to them. Yes, it would adversely affect them. However, something tells me they would survive it a whole lot better then we would. Do I think they actually would do dump the dollar...no, i do not. Why give up that leverage? Why do you think our politicians make it so easy for China to buy up America? Interesting.


THats because other nations are also exerting influence with a barrel of a gun, or worse. Its not pretty, but no real alternative.

Is it a response to us or is it imperialistic. We should look at it as a case by case.

So............. you basically are saying that a few conspiracy sites that you read are equivalent of a college education? Ok... my point is made here. My problem with this is that you dont seem to know what exactly you are rebelling against, and lack the basic understanding of a banking theory. And no, they dont just "tell" you shit in college. They prove it, ether by mathmatics, or empirical/historical evidence. Only places where they just spew shit without any proof is those conspiracy sites you seem to be a fan of.

I love how you (and others) use that "conspiracy theory" tag. Once applied, it nullifies the argument right or wrong (at least in your minds). I have laid this out for you time and again. The Fed is not American but it controls the American economy. The Fed uses the IRS as a collection agency. We pay taxes most of which go to paying interest on debts we never had anything to do with accruing. What does my education have to do with those FACTS? To me, it is wrong to be born into a system where my future tax dollars are used as collateral, to secure loans, to finance our horrendous foreign policy.

You on the other hand are a sheep. You are like one of the matrix people who would die to protect the system. You just can't believe you are asleep in a slimy pod with tubes and shit jacked into your flesh (these are metaphors btw). But the system doesn't love you Monroe. It uses you like a Duracell battery and discards you the moment you have no use. It is that system that I wish to change.


Really? Ill repute before 9/11? He basically cleaned up midtown and times square, and took all those pornno shops and strip joints and replaced them with decent businesses so that you didnt have to cover your kids eyes when you walked down the street. The quality of life went up substancially during his reign as a mayor because he actually cared about minor things like graffiti that in the big picture may not mean much, but make the town look like shit. There wasnt a single year during his time as a mayor that the crime rate did not go down from a previous year. He sucessfully prosecuted ALL the top mafia bosses in NYC while being a district attorney.
Im not saying he is a perfect candidate there is tons of shit I disagree with him on, but he sure as fuck better qualified than some cooky old fuck who thinks that civil war never happened (or something along those lines, i dont remeber the exact quote).

So he got rid of a few porn shops...big fucking deal. So he was hard on the homeless....big fucking deal. So he prosecuted criminals..............wait for it...........big fucking deal.

Being a prosecutor doesn't make you a good presidential candidate. He has no grasp of foreign policy yet you want to elevate him to the position to dictate it for us. Use that college edumacation for something other then politics dude.

[Monroe]

Not being an empire is going to free up a lot of cash. We should try to figure out just how much. With all that cash not being thrown away on imperialistic ideals, we can focus on cleaning up our own house.

How would it free up cash if you are getting rid of IRS and are stopping to collect taxes? Where would the $$$ come from? Also, if I worked my whole life, and saved up for retiremment, why would I have to depend on government for sustinance now, just because you got some "plan"


In the 80's prime was high as well. Keep in mind, borrowing at an adjustable rate (such as prime) is sorta like gambling without knowing the odds; especially, when the odds makers (Fed) aren't beholden to or part of the American government (i.e.: our supposed representation).


You can borrow on a fixed rate which is also tied to the prime at w/e time that is you are borrowing. The spread is going to be higher though. My point was that right now if you look at things historically we are actually doing well, with low inflation/interest rates and pretty much fulll natuaral employment.



I won't claim to know China's economy well enough to predict what dumping the dollar would do to them. Yes, it would adversely affect them. However, something tells me they would survive it a whole lot better then we would. Do I think they actually would do dump the dollar...no, i do not. Why give up that leverage? Why do you think our politicians make it so easy for China to buy up America? Interesting.



Well what is this "something" that tells you that? Your ass? Because your first sentence says that you dont understand chinese economy yet you think they will survive the downturn better. YOu think that based on what?



I love how you (and others) use that "conspiracy theory" tag. Once applied, it nullifies the argument right or wrong (at least in your minds). I have laid this out for you time and again. The Fed is not American but it controls the American economy. The Fed uses the IRS as a collection agency. We pay taxes most of which go to paying interest on debts we never had anything to do with accruing. What does my education have to do with those FACTS? To me, it is wrong to be born into a system where my future tax dollars are used as collateral, to secure loans, to finance our horrendous foreign policy.


Even if I didnt say the conspiracy theory part, it still doesnt change the part that you have absolutley ZERO understanding of basic banking theory, or American government for that matter. I am not gonna bother explaining for the umpteeth time that IRS and Fed have nothign to do with each other, because with you it will just go into 1 eye and out of the other, without anything actually collecting in the brain. As far as us not having anythign to do with debts... the roads you dive on, the fire systems, the water systems, bridges, grand national projects that you may not directly use every day but still derive benefit from (hoover dam for example), you use these things every day, who do you think pays for that.


You on the other hand are a sheep. You are like one of the matrix people who would die to protect the system. You just can't believe you are asleep in a slimy pod with tubes and shit jacked into your flesh (these are metaphors btw). But the system doesn't love you Monroe. It uses you like a Duracell battery and discards you the moment you have no use. It is that system that I wish to change.


I think you been watching too much movies, man.




So he got rid of a few porn shops...big fucking deal. So he was hard on the homeless....big fucking deal. So he prosecuted criminals..............wait for it...........big fucking deal.

Being a prosecutor doesn't make you a good presidential candidate. He has no grasp of foreign policy yet you want to elevate him to the position to dictate it for us. Use that college edumacation for something other then politics dude.

Ya, its a big deal. Its more than what the majority of other candidates have done including Ron Paul. He got actual results that he can present. I would say Mayor of New York as far as governing goes is one of the hardest jobs out there, just because of so many people being crammed into such a small space and they are all diverse in terms of race, ethnitnicity, social class, income, education etc etc.

[Will]

How would it free up cash if you are getting rid of IRS and are stopping to collect taxes? Where would the $$$ come from? Also, if I worked my whole life, and saved up for retiremment, why would I have to depend on government for sustinance now, just because you got some "plan"

Have you taken a look at how much we spend on defense? Do you know how much we spend on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on a daily basis? Your statement tells me no. I invite you to look those numbers up. We can apportion a temporary tax (of say 5yrs) but after that, its on the govt. Otherwise, we'll get a new one. That's the beauty of our system, we CAN do that.


You can borrow on a fixed rate which is also tied to the prime at w/e time that is you are borrowing. The spread is going to be higher though. My point was that right now if you look at things historically we are actually doing well, with low inflation/interest rates and pretty much fulll natuaral employment.

Fixed rates cannot be tied to adjustable rates, that is sort of an oxymoron. If you are using an adjustable index to set a fixed rate then fine. Historically, rates are low, this much is true. Real wages and inflation however, are completely against us historically speaking. Take a look at the housing market now or the fact that most of the new jobs created are service sector. Price of oil? Add to that the illegal immigration amnesty (which will eventually come in one form or another...unless we stop it). You begin to see we are ripe for an economic fall from grace. Our living standards will diminish greatly and very soon unless we take immediate corrective action. Ron Paul can get the job done, imo.

Well what is this "something" that tells you that? Your ass? Because your first sentence says that you dont understand chinese economy yet you think they will survive the downturn better. YOu think that based on what?

My first sentence was more akin to stipulating that I don't know the Chinese economy well enough to predict the effects. My belief comes from their form of government. They can simply take over anything they want to help whether the effects.



Even if I didnt say the conspiracy theory part, it still doesnt change the part that you have absolutley ZERO understanding of basic banking theory, or American government for that matter. I am not gonna bother explaining for the umpteeth time that IRS and Fed have nothign to do with each other, because with you it will just go into 1 eye and out of the other, without anything actually collecting in the brain. As far as us not having anythign to do with debts... the roads you dive on, the fire systems, the water systems, bridges, grand national projects that you may not directly use every day but still derive benefit from (hoover dam for example), you use these things every day, who do you think pays for that.

The IRS and the Fed have nothing to do with each other? I give up.


Ya, its a big deal. Its more than what the majority of other candidates have done including Ron Paul. He got actual results that he can present. I would say Mayor of New York as far as governing goes is one of the hardest jobs out there, just because of so many people being crammed into such a small space and they are all diverse in terms of race, ethnitnicity, social class, income, education etc etc.

How the hell would you say anything about which job is hard and which one isn't. Have you ever worked for the government? Do you have any earthly idea of what you are talking about? I would say being a doctor is harder then being a mayor any day of the week You have to make life and death decisions much more frequently. Also, and infinitely more important to the question at hand (who is better as a presidential candidate) Ron Paul, unlike Rudy Guiliani, understands foreign policy. Guiliani isn't even a conservative in any real sense. At least Ron Paul is in the right political party.

[Will]

Abolish the Fed
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD (http://www.house.gov/paul/mail/welcome.htm)
http://a449.g.akamai.net/f/449/1776/1d/button.clickability.com/img/com/000099/h-s-text-l.gif (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html#) http://a449.g.akamai.net/f/449/1776/1d/button.clickability.com/img/com/000099/h-e-icon-l.gifhttp://a449.g.akamai.net/f/449/1776/1d/button.clickability.com/img/com/000099/h-e-text-l.gif (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html#) http://a449.g.akamai.net/f/449/1776/1d/button.clickability.com/img/com/000099/h-p-icon-l.gifhttp://a449.g.akamai.net/f/449/1776/1d/button.clickability.com/img/com/000099/h-p-text-l.gif (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html#) http://a449.g.akamai.net/f/449/1776/1d/button.clickability.com/img/com/000099/h-mp-icon-l.gifhttp://a449.g.akamai.net/f/449/1776/1d/button.clickability.com/img/com/000099/h-mp-text-l.gif (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html#)
In the House of Representatives, September 10, 2002

Mr. Speaker, I rise to introduce legislation to restore financial stability to America's economy by abolishing the Federal Reserve. I also ask unanimous consent to insert the attached article by Lew Rockwell, president of the Ludwig Von Mises Institute, which explains the benefits of abolishing the Fed and restoring the gold standard, into the record.
Since the creation of the Federal Reserve, middle and working-class Americans have been victimized by a boom-and-bust monetary policy. In addition, most Americans have suffered a steadily eroding purchasing power because of the Federal Reserve's inflationary policies. This represents a real, if hidden, tax imposed on the American people.
From the Great Depression, to the stagflation of the seventies, to the burst of the dotcom bubble last year, every economic downturn suffered by the country over the last 80 years can be traced to Federal Reserve policy. The Fed has followed a consistent policy of flooding the economy with easy money, leading to a misallocation of resources and an artificial "boom" followed by a recession or depression when the Fed-created bubble bursts.
With a stable currency, American exporters will no longer be held hostage to an erratic monetary policy. Stabilizing the currency will also give Americans new incentives to save as they will no longer have to fear inflation eroding their savings. Those members concerned about increasing America's exports or the low rate of savings should be enthusiastic supporters of this legislation.
Though the Federal Reserve policy harms the average American, it benefits those in a position to take advantage of the cycles in monetary policy. The main beneficiaries are those who receive access to artificially inflated money and/or credit before the inflationary effects of the policy impact the entire economy. Federal Reserve policies also benefit big spending politicians who use the inflated currency created by the Fed to hide the true costs of the welfare-warfare state. It is time for Congress to put the interests of the American people ahead of the special interests and their own appetite for big government.
Abolishing the Federal Reserve will allow Congress to reassert its constitutional authority over monetary policy. The United States Constitution grants to Congress the authority to coin money and regulate the value of the currency. The Constitution does not give Congress the authority to delegate control over monetary policy to a central bank. Furthermore, the Constitution certainly does not empower the federal government to erode the American standard of living via an inflationary monetary policy.
In fact, Congress' constitutional mandate regarding monetary policy should only permit currency backed by stable commodities such as silver and gold to be used as legal tender. Therefore, abolishing the Federal Reserve and returning to a constitutional system will enable America to return to the type of monetary system envisioned by our nation's founders: one where the value of money is consistent because it is tied to a commodity such as gold. Such a monetary system is the basis of a true free-market economy.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I urge my colleagues to stand up for working Americans by putting an end to the manipulation of the money supply which erodes Americans' standard of living, enlarges big government, and enriches well-connected elites, by cosponsoring my legislation to abolish the Federal Reserve.
WHY GOLD?
By Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. As with all matters of investment, everything is clear in hindsight. Had you bought gold mutual funds earlier this year, they might have appreciated more than 100 percent. Gold has risen $60 since March 2001 to the latest spot price of $326.
Why wasn't it obvious? The Fed has been inflating the dollar as never before, driving interest rates down to absurdly low levels, even as the federal government has been pushing a mercantile trade policy, and New York City, the hub of the world economy, continues to be threatened by terrorism. The government is failing to prevent more successful attacks by not backing down from foreign policy disasters and by not allowing planes to arm themselves. These are all conditions that make gold particularly attractive.
Or perhaps it is not so obvious why this is true. It's been three decades since the dollar's tie to gold was completely severed, to the hosannas of mainstream economists. There is no stash of gold held by the Fed or the Treasury that backs our currency system. The government owns gold but not as a monetary asset. It owns it the same way it owns national parks and fighter planes. It's just another asset the government keeps to itself.
The dollar, and all our money, is nothing more and nothing less than what it looks like: a cut piece of linen paper with fancy printing on it. You can exchange it for other currency at a fixed rate and for any good or service at a flexible rate. But there is no established exchange rate between the dollar and gold, either at home or internationally.
The supply of money is not limited by the amount of gold. Gold is just another good for which the dollar can be exchanged, and in that sense is legally no different from a gallon of milk, a tank of gas, or an hour of babysitting services.
Why, then, do people turn to gold in times like these? What is gold used for? Yes, there are industrial uses and there are consumer uses in jewelry and the like. But recessions and inflations don't cause people to want to wear more jewelry or stock up on industrial metal. The investor demand ultimately reflects consumer demand for gold. But that still leaves us with the question of why the consumer demand exists in the first place. Why gold and not sugar or wheat or something else?
There is no getting away from it: investor markets have memories of the days when gold was money. In fact, in the whole history of civilization, gold has served as the basic money of all people wherever it's been available. Other precious metals have been valued and coined, but gold always emerged on top in the great competition for what constitutes the most valuable commodity of all.
There is nothing intrinsic about gold that makes it money. It has certain properties that lend itself to monetary use, like portability, divisibility, scarcity, durability, and uniformity. But these are just descriptors of certain qualities of the metal, not explanations as to why it became money. Gold became money for only one reason: because that's what the markets chose.
Why isn't gold money now? Because governments destroyed the gold standard. Why? Because they regarded it as too inflexible. To be sure, monetary inflexibility is the friend of free markets. Without the ability to create money out of nothing, governments tend to run tight financial ships. Banks are more careful about the lending when they can't rely on a lender of last resort with access to a money-creation machine like the Fed.
A fixed money stock means that overall prices are generally more stable. The problems of inflation and business cycles disappear entirely. Under the gold standard, in fact, increased market productivity causes prices to generally decline over time as the purchasing power of money increases.
In 1967, Alan Greenspan once wrote an article called Gold and Economic Freedom. He wrote that:
"An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense – perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire – that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other. . . . This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights."
He was right. Gold and freedom go together. Gold money is both the result of freedom and its leading protector. When money is as good as gold, the government cannot manipulate the supply for its own purposes. Just as the rule of law puts limits on the despotic use of police power, a gold standard puts extreme limits on the government's ability to spend, borrow, and otherwise create crazy unworkable programs. It is forced to raise its revenue through taxation, not inflation, and generally keep its house in order.
Without the gold standard, government is free to work with the Fed to inflate the currency without limit. Even in our own times, we've seen governments do that and thereby spread mass misery.
Now, all governments are stupid but not all are so stupid as to pull stunts like this. Most of the time, governments are pleased to inflate their currencies so long as they don't have to pay the price in the form of mass bankruptcies, falling exchange rates, and inflation.
In the real world, of course, there is a lag time between cause and effect. The Fed has been inflating the currency at very high levels for longer than a year. The consequences of this disastrous policy are showing up only recently in the form of a falling dollar and higher gold prices. And so what does the Fed do? It is pulling back now. For the first time in nearly ten years, some measures of money (M2 and MZM) are showing a falling money stock, which is likely to prompt a second dip in the continuing recession.
Greenspan now finds himself on the horns of a very serious dilemma. If he continues to pull back on money, the economy could tip into a serious recession. This is especially a danger given rising protectionism, which mirrors the events of the early 1930s. On the other hand, a continuation of the loose policy he has pursued for a year endangers the value of the dollar overseas.
How much easier matters were when we didn't have to rely on the wisdom of exalted monetary central planners like Greenspan. Under the gold standard, the supply of money regulated itself. The government kept within limits. Banks were more cautious. Savings were high because credit was tight and saving was rewarded. This approach to economics is the foundation of a sustainable prosperity.
We don't have that system now for the country or the world, but individuals are showing their preferences once again. By driving up the price of gold, prompting gold producers to become profitable again, the people are expressing their lack of confidence in their leaders. They have decided to protect themselves and not trust the state. That is the hidden message behind the new luster of gold.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul2.jpg
Is a gold standard feasible again? Of course. The dollar could be redefined in terms of gold. Interest rates would reflect the real supply and demand for credit. We could shut down the Fed and we would never need to worry again what the chairman of the Fed wanted. There was a time when Greenspan was nostalgic for such a system. Investors of the world have come to embrace this view even as Greenspan has completely abandoned it.
What keeps the gold standard from becoming a reality again is the love of big government and war. If we ever fall in love with freedom again, the gold standard will once more become a hot issue in public debate.

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

[LordChowder]

wow that guys a retard.

[LordChowder]

I thought you had to be incapable of working, like Ill or something to be on welfare?

no, frank is right. 99% are abusing the welfare system. but there are a few unemployed single mothers with breast cancer who do need government aid. which obviously we wouldnt provide since taxes = oppression. everyone knows a proper government runs on pixie dust, not money. damn the federal government!

[Monroe]

Have you taken a look at how much we spend on defense? Do you know how much we spend on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on a daily basis? Your statement tells me no. I invite you to look those numbers up. We can apportion a temporary tax (of say 5yrs) but after that, its on the govt. Otherwise, we'll get a new one. That's the beauty of our system, we CAN do that.

What does spending on national defense and wars have to do with your plan of disbanding IRS and stopping the payment of national debt. So, now you want to apportion a temporary tax?
So wait, your plan as I understannd it, is: wipe out the IRS and stop paying our national debt (essentially wiping out savings of every american, and putting the economy and the country in general in complete shock), then apportion a "temporary tax" (thats gonna be collected by whom? since IRS is no longer around), then try to do with no taxes if that doesnt work (and it wont), bring the taxes back, which effectivly means you are bringing IRS back (probably under different name) since someone is gonna have to collect the taxes. That is truly a great plan.



Fixed rates cannot be tied to adjustable rates, that is sort of an oxymoron. If you are using an adjustable index to set a fixed rate then fine. Historically, rates are low, this much is true. Real wages and inflation however, are completely against us historically speaking. Take a look at the housing market now or the fact that most of the new jobs created are service sector. Price of oil? Add to that the illegal immigration amnesty (which will eventually come in one form or another...unless we stop it). You begin to see we are ripe for an economic fall from grace. Our living standards will diminish greatly and very soon unless we take immediate corrective action. Ron Paul can get the job done, imo.


Inflation is historcally very low. Housing market: right now there is the highest rate of home ownership in history, with 73% (i think) of Americans owning their own homes, that is why the prices have risen so much, the demand has grown. Price of oil: globally it is still lower than most countries. Service sector is where generally most of the highest paid jobs are situatied and it is also a sector that requires the most education, so I odnt see what your problem is with that. For most of the developed economies, service sector is where the jobs are increasing, and it is a sign of a mature economy if most of the GDP comes from a service sector. I am also against the immigration amnesty, but please tell me, what amazing finacial analysis led you to believe that our living standarts will diminish greatly, and what "corrective action" should we take? Your awesome tax plan?


My first sentence was more akin to stipulating that I don't know the Chinese economy well enough to predict the effects. My belief comes from their form of government. They can simply take over anything they want to help whether the effects.


Yes, they still rule their people under what we Americans would call an "iron leash", but it is already now a lot more liberal than it was even 10 years ago. One of the main reasons they can still exude control is because their growing economy, the people there are living better than they ever lived before, which keeps a large number of people happy and complacent. If all of a sudden their economy takes a downturn, and there is a huge unemployment, and people become unhappy, there will be a national uprising on the scale that is unheard of. Especially since younger chinese have a lot more liberal thinking than the older people.
That is another reason why chinese govt is interested in keeping yuan artificially low. They want as high employment as possble, and to keep people complacent by the increase of their living standards for as long as possble, because last thin they want is for powder keg to explode.




I give up.

finally!



[/quote]
How the hell would you say anything about which job is hard and which one isn't. Have you ever worked for the government? Do you have any earthly idea of what you are talking about? I would say being a doctor is harder then being a mayor any day of the week You have to make life and death decisions much more frequently. Also, and infinitely more important to the question at hand (who is better as a presidential candidate) Ron Paul, unlike Rudy Guiliani, understands foreign policy. Guiliani isn't even a conservative in any real sense. At least Ron Paul is in the right political party.[/quote]

Ron Paul has the same general foreign policy as Jimmy Carter. We are still feeling effects from his presidancy.

[Monroe]

Honestly if Ron Paul is winning debates with drivel like that, perhaps I should run for office, because I would have no problem shutting him down.

Here, Ill analyze his article, my comments are in red:

Abolish the Fed
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD (http://www.house.gov/paul/mail/welcome.htm)
(http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html) (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html) (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html) (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul53.html)
In the House of Representatives, September 10, 2002
Mr. Speaker, I rise to introduce legislation to restore financial stability to America's economy by abolishing the Federal Reserve. I also ask unanimous consent to insert the attached article by Lew Rockwell (who the fuck is that? I Googled him but couldn’t find anything about his education, or a single research paper he has written. Only thing I could find is this Ludwig von Mises institute. Seems like he intentionally keeping a large part of his life secret), president of the Ludwig Von Mises Institute (Ok, lets be honest here for a second. Ludwig von Mises Institute is basically 1 building somewhere in Podunk, Alabama, and has like 300 students and 20 teachers. Surely a world class institution on par with Harvard, Yale, and other great houses of education. I wonder what their admission requirements are.), which explains the benefits of abolishing the Fed and restoring the gold standard, into the record. (Let’s just modify the first part of this statement to make it sound more truthful. “According to some random asshole from Podunk, Alabama….. “)
Since the creation of the Federal Reserve, middle and working-class Americans have been victimized by a boom-and-bust monetary policy. In addition, most Americans have suffered a steadily eroding purchasing power because of the Federal Reserve's inflationary policies. This represents a real, if hidden, tax imposed on the American people. (That’s interesting, because right now middle and working class Americans is living better than ever. Having only 1 TV and eating non-organic food is now considered poor, when 50 years ago, a fair % of people couldn’t afford to eat meat every day. Or should I talk about how during WWII people had coupons for sugar, meat, flour, etc etc, surely that is the same now that we are fighting in Iraq.)
From the Great Depression, to the stagflation of the seventies, to the burst of the dotcom bubble last year, every economic downturn suffered by the country over the last 80 years can be traced to Federal Reserve policy. The Fed has followed a consistent policy of flooding the economy with easy money, leading to a misallocation of resources and an artificial "boom" followed by a recession or depression when the Fed-created bubble bursts. (What is this based on? Your bathroom reading? There plenty of prominent economist, granted they aren’t as esteemed as Lew Rockwell of Ludwig von Shithead institute who will argue that economy moves in cycles, and that some short recessions are inevitable, but overall historical trend is up. Also plenty of research attributes the stagflation to the oil crisis and tech bubble to the emergence of a whole brand new technology (the internet) and investors simply mis pricing it because it was something completely brand new. Give us some sound proof here, maybe some statistical research to back it up, SOMETHING!!!)
With a stable currency, American exporters will no longer be held hostage to an erratic monetary policy. Stabilizing the currency will also give Americans new incentives to save as they will no longer have to fear inflation eroding their savings. Those members concerned about increasing America's exports or the low rate of savings should be enthusiastic supporters of this legislation. (Actually, historically the American currency has been very stable inflation wise, here instead of talking about out of our ass, lets look at the graph http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3306/image4xc5.jpg(Source: US Department of Labor). The graph is very linear without any jumps or jagged parts, which shows stable currency. Now, what exactly is your statement about savings based on, because even inflation adjusted overall market return is about 11% a year, historically, so inflation doesn’t erode savings, because savings generate interest.)
Though the Federal Reserve policy harms the average American, it benefits those in a position to take advantage of the cycles in monetary policy. The main beneficiaries are those who receive access to artificially inflated money and/or credit before the inflationary effects of the policy impact the entire economy. Federal Reserve policies also benefit big spending politicians who use the inflated currency created by the Fed to hide the true costs of the welfare-warfare state. It is time for Congress to put the interests of the American people ahead of the special interests and their own appetite for big government. (This makes no sense. How about explaining HOW exactly this whole process happens, and how it harms the “average American, instead of just spewing shit out of your mouth)
Abolishing the Federal Reserve will allow Congress to reassert its constitutional authority over monetary policy. The United States Constitution grants to Congress the authority to coin money and regulate the value of the currency. The Constitution does not give Congress the authority to delegate control over monetary policy to a central bank. Furthermore, the Constitution certainly does not empower the federal government to erode the American standard of living via an inflationary monetary policy. (Again with this standard of living. Look at statistics, the standard of living right now, is higher than ever in every single indicator, here I will help ya look: data.bls.gov). Last time I checked the constitution was an evolving document, and first central bank was established by Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding fathers.)
In fact, Congress' constitutional mandate regarding monetary policy should only permit currency backed by stable commodities such as silver and gold to be used as legal tender. Therefore, abolishing the Federal Reserve and returning to a constitutional system will enable America to return to the type of monetary system envisioned by our nation's founders: one where the value of money is consistent because it is tied to a commodity such as gold. Such a monetary system is the basis of a true free-market economy.In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I urge my colleagues to stand up for working Americans by putting an end to the manipulation of the money supply which erodes Americans' standard of living, enlarges big government, and enriches well-connected elites, by cosponsoring my legislation to abolish the Federal Reserve. (Actually gold or any currency tied to a particular commodity is inherently unstable. So if you are looking for a stable currency, gold is the last thing you should be thinking of. Some empirical examples: someone finds a new gold mine somewhere, and all of a sudden, for no good reason, your currency is devalued because the supply of gold went up. God forbid someone finds a way to synthesize gold (the way they synthesize precious stones for example), then your currency is really going to take a hit. )


Ill shut down the venerable Mr.(not Dr.?) Lew Rockwell tomorow, im going home to fuck my gf.

[Damarus]

You are kidding right... You did NOT just compare the iraq war to WWII?..........

I don't actually disagree with most of what you are saying today monroe, but that one part... Come on man.

[LordChowder]

You are kidding right... You did NOT just compare the iraq war to WWII?..........

I don't actually disagree with most of what you are saying today monroe, but that one part... Come on man.

hitler and sadam both have mustaches. NAME ONE DIFFERENCE.

[Monroe]

You are kidding right... You did NOT just compare the iraq war to WWII?..........

I don't actually disagree with most of what you are saying today monroe, but that one part... Come on man.

My point is that during present times population of america is living a lot better during times of war than it ever had. During WWII and I think possbly even during vietnam there was rationing going on, of both food and oil, and everyone had to cut back to help the war effort. I dont think food was rationed during vietnam, but I think oil was. That is not the case now, living standards are improving despite the fact that we are fighting a war.

I am not actually comparing the wars just how civilan population lived during them.

[Damarus]

Yeah I can see what you mean there, but I guess I just don't see the Iraq war as even a war really... I mean basically we had a shitload of countries zerg them and there was never any real retaliation. So to say civilian population is living better in 'times of war' in my opinion is a given, since there wasn't really anything happening outside of the borders of Iraq (physically not politically). Like, trade routes from Australia to America weren't cut off, American harbours weren't being bombed, etc (Just as random examples - not saying these two would be the major effects of a '2-way' war).

[Monroe]

Yeah I can see what you mean there, but I guess I just don't see the Iraq war as even a war really... I mean basically we had a shitload of countries zerg them and there was never any real retaliation. So to say civilian population is living better in 'times of war' in my opinion is a given, since there wasn't really anything happening outside of the borders of Iraq (physically not politically). Like, trade routes from Australia to America weren't cut off, American harbours weren't being bombed, etc (Just as random examples - not saying these two would be the major effects of a '2-way' war).

Well, during the first phase of the war in the 1990s Iraq had the 5th largest military on earth, behind US, Russia, China, England, France. We fought that war without much pain ether. But you right there was no bombings of US territory as such, mainly because our technology is so great, we decimated everything of strategical value, before they could use it against us. Which again proves my point that nowdays everyone including the middle and working classes are living better, because our technology has gotten so good compared to the rest of the world that now we can fight wars with relatively small %age of our resourses, and be protected enough that our borders dont get attacked. While Ron Paul is saying that over the past 80 years middle and working class have been victimized by the evil Fed.

[LordChowder]

but what does any of this have to do with pot pies? or even guiliani?

[Talorth]

hitler and sadam both have mustaches. NAME ONE DIFFERENCE.
rofl!

[LordChowder]

wo shi pot pie

[Monroe]

but what does any of this have to do with pot pies? or even guiliani?

nothing. i was just pointing out how inept ron paul is

[LordChowder]

nothing. i was just pointing out how inept ron paul is

well does ron paul like pot pies?

[Monroe]

well does ron paul like pot pies?

I dont know why dont you ask him

[Damarus]

Well, during the first phase of the war in the 1990s Iraq had the 5th largest military on earth, behind US, Russia, China, England, France. We fought that war without much pain ether. But you right there was no bombings of US territory as such, mainly because our technology is so great, we decimated everything of strategical value, before they could use it against us. Which again proves my point that nowdays everyone including the middle and working classes are living better, because our technology has gotten so good compared to the rest of the world that now we can fight wars with relatively small %age of our resourses, and be protected enough that our borders dont get attacked. While Ron Paul is saying that over the past 80 years middle and working class have been victimized by the evil Fed.Hmm touche. I didn't really take that into consideration. Our (Aus/USA I'll group them for the purpose of this post since I only really know the Australian involvement in the war, and know our SAS troops are some of the highest trained in the world - a definite improvement on our aid in WWII) technology is greatly superior to what it used to be, and I guess you're right this led to a much smaller percentage of resources used (although I would disagree if we talked monetary resources - a point I'm sure Will is going to make when he sees this), and I can see this relating to middle/working classes living better via not having a lack of resources during war times, but It's not really decisive proof on them living better. Just an assumption that no food rationing means better living, which I guess is a logical assumption... Iunno I don't wanna get too far into a debate on American living it's something I'm obviously not very familiar with.

From what you are saying about him though, this Ron Paul chap definately seems to be a 'chicken little' type character.

[LordChowder]

aussies got owned by japs in wwii. seems silly in retrospect because theyre so short. where was crocodile dundee when you needed him?

[Talorth]

Ron Paul is far too radical to be on the end ballot anyways...

[LordChowder]

I dont know why dont you ask him

i dont have his cell anymore, i wrote it down on that dairy queen napkin, but then i needed the napkin to clean my face of all the brownie batter blizzard. it was a sacrifice that had to be made. but if he doesnt like pot pies, i dont particular see why we need to be talking about him, since clearly he has no credibility in politics, finances, or anything really.

[Talorth]

Im a dairy queen tbh.

[LordChowder]

oh youre silly, youre just silly! *flails wrist and rubs whipped cream all over his nipples*

...ohh i see what you mean.

[Damarus]

aussies got owned by japs in wwii. seems silly in retrospect because theyre so short. where was crocodile dundee when you needed him?Man, we were all there in our wife beaters and shorts with our cricket bats waiting for those short cunts to try and take us on... The problem was even our best bastmen couldn't hit the bombs they threw at us for six :(

[Talorth]

HaiiiiiiiiiIiIIi!!!! My names skittles.... wanna taste the rainbow!?

[LordChowder]

Man, we were all there in our wife beaters and shorts with our cricket bats waiting for those short cunts to try and take us on... The problem was even our best bastmen couldn't hit the bombs they threw at us for six :(

chuckin boomerangs at em, with your diggeredoos playin the aussie national anthem, which im pretty sure is men at work - land down under.

[Talorth]

why are there so many gay australian men?


this is an honest question.

[LordChowder]

why are there so many gay australian men?


this is an honest question.

have you seen the Australian women...? shit, id probably be gay too.

[Talorth]

googling aussie women comes up with the dundee...

I see your point.

[Damarus]

There are lots of gay australian men? News to me to be honest lol... Maybe I live in a gay free zone? Of all the people I went to school with only 1 turned out gay... Google Jennifer Hawkins - she was the Australian Miss Universe like a couple of years ago. Not all Australian women are ugly! (Which is lucky for the sexy blokes like me).

[Talorth]

I was hoping to convert you to the gay side polar : <

[LordChowder]

There are lots of gay australian men? News to me to be honest lol... Maybe I live in a gay free zone? Of all the people I went to school with only 1 turned out gay... Google Jennifer Hawkins - she was the Australian Miss Universe like a couple of years ago. Not all Australian women are ugly! (Which is lucky for the sexy blokes like me).

when you say 1, do you mean all? im not familiar with all the aussie terms. much like lift = elevator in england!

[Talorth]

i read themondrated with my sunglasses on because it makes me cool.

[LordChowder]

i do it because i post from the sun 8-)

[Talorth]

thats HC to the M


TO THE M!

[Monroe]

wow, no chance one of you faggots deleting all this derail shit, eh?

[Damarus]

Lol monroe actually has a point for once - It was about time he got one back at us tbh.

[Will]

wow that guys a retard.

And you seem well equipped to judge.

[LordChowder]

And you seem well equipped to judge.

yeah, hard to tell hes retarded just by reading his retarded ideas.

[Will]

What does spending on national defense and wars have to do with your plan of disbanding IRS and stopping the payment of national debt. So, now you want to apportion a temporary tax?
So wait, your plan as I understannd it, is: wipe out the IRS and stop paying our national debt (essentially wiping out savings of every american, and putting the economy and the country in general in complete shock), then apportion a "temporary tax" (thats gonna be collected by whom? since IRS is no longer around), then try to do with no taxes if that doesnt work (and it wont), bring the taxes back, which effectivly means you are bringing IRS back (probably under different name) since someone is gonna have to collect the taxes. That is truly a great plan.

Let me try and make this as simple as possible. Spending billions and billions of dollars on needless wars is a waste of money. Without that waste, we could put that money to much better use. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to follow. The constitution says that "CONGRESS" shall be responsible for printing and regulating money. No need for a central bank ever. A central bank, and it's policies of inflation and deflation only serve to enrich the elite and marginalize average Americans. You and I Monroe, are not average Americans. I (and I'm guessing you by the virtue of your responses) make well over the average income for people in the US (45k per year). If you can't feel the pinch that is because it hasn't quite reached you yet. Give it time, it will, and then you will be like what the fuck is going on here? Why isn't my money worth anything anymore...I thought I was well off.....doh.

Inflation is historcally very low. Housing market: right now there is the highest rate of home ownership in history, with 73% (i think) of Americans owning their own homes, that is why the prices have risen so much, the demand has grown. Price of oil: globally it is still lower than most countries. Service sector is where generally most of the highest paid jobs are situatied and it is also a sector that requires the most education, so I odnt see what your problem is with that. For most of the developed economies, service sector is where the jobs are increasing, and it is a sign of a mature economy if most of the GDP comes from a service sector. I am also against the immigration amnesty, but please tell me, what amazing finacial analysis led you to believe that our living standarts will diminish greatly, and what "corrective action" should we take? Your awesome tax plan?

Show me some data that indicates inflation is historically low. This I have to see. Also, haven't you noticed all the "high paying" jobs that have gone overseas in the past several years due to outsourcing? When I say our living standards I mean our country as a whole. I don't mean yours specifically, yet. In the 1960's one income was sufficient to own a house, pay all the bills, put your kids in college, and live pretty comfortably. How many one income families are there now do you suppose?

Yes, they still rule their people under what we Americans would call an "iron leash", but it is already now a lot more liberal than it was even 10 years ago. One of the main reasons they can still exude control is because their growing economy, the people there are living better than they ever lived before, which keeps a large number of people happy and complacent. If all of a sudden their economy takes a downturn, and there is a huge unemployment, and people become unhappy, there will be a national uprising on the scale that is unheard of. Especially since younger chinese have a lot more liberal thinking than the older people.
That is another reason why chinese govt is interested in keeping yuan artificially low. They want as high employment as possble, and to keep people complacent by the increase of their living standards for as long as possble, because last thin they want is for powder keg to explode.

You are right about one thing, the Chinese economy is strong. They actually have a middle class. Ours is all but gone. Our powder keg is a lot closer to exploding but you won't hear about that on Fox News.

finally!

You claim victory for Guliani? Is that's so, it is the only one he will see.

Ron Paul has the same general foreign policy as Jimmy Carter. We are still feeling effects from his presidancy.

Your point?

[Will]

Too much quoting but in response to Monroe's analysis of Ron Paul proposed legislation to abolish the Federal Reserve:

Family Income Trends (inflation adjusted)
- rising rapidly for 23 years before 1970, then near stagnate next 34 years -
(A 'family' is a group of 2 or more persons related by birth, marriage or adoption and residing together)
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/income.gifAre families getting 'ahead?' The first two charts show the 55-year trend of median family incomes (inflation-adjusted). Watch family incomes rapidly rise for 23 years (1947-1970), then for the next 34 years incomes adjusted for inflation level off, oscillate and stagnate, despite more mothers entering the workforce trying to make up the squeeze.
Look at the charts at the left. Don't be intimidated - I'll help you.
The top chart shows 1947-1970 rapidly rising for the 23 years of strong real (inflation-adjusted) median family income growth - - a nice, rising income trend (compounding 3.7% annually) - as inflation-adjusted incomes increased 106%, from $18,000 to $37,000. During this period later pictures in this report will prove family savings ratios were climbing and household debt ratios were steady to falling. Win-Win for families.
Note for 1970 that family income growth stopped rising, as if hitting a brick wall - - then oscillates without growth for 8 years through 1978.
Now look at the 2nd chart (1979-2004), showing the oscillating stagnant growth period of family income continues another 25 years to 2004. The total stagnant income period is 33 years in total (1970-2004), whether measured in constant 1993 dollars or in 2004 dollars.
Look at the blue data curve (in 1993 dollars). It shows 2004 at about $41,000 family income, which is not much above $37,000 income 34 years earlier in 1970 shown on the first chart (also measured in 1993 dollars). This computes real income compound growth for this 34 year period (1970-2004) of a measly 0.3% per year (about $10/month) average, compared to 12 times faster income growth of 3.7% annually in the prior 23 years.
Taking both charts together one notes families wining for 23 years (1947-1970), then families nearly treading water for 34 years of family income stagnation (1970-2004). In the past 5 years family incomes fell 2.9%.
Universal Press for the Houston Chronicle reported 22 May 2005 > "According to the Department of Labor, average gross weekly earnings for private nonagricultural workers rose from $267.26 a week in 1982 to $536.17 a week in February 2005 — doubling in 23 years. The same figure, adjusted for the consumer price index for urban wage earners and clerical workers, otherwise known as CPI-W, rises from $267.26 to $276.95. That's a purchasing power gain of $9.69 over two decades. In today's money, it's about enough to go to a movie if you don't eat much. That's a total gain of 3.6 percent over the period, an annualized gain of 0.16 percent over half a working lifetime. In other words, the average worker has been going nowhere. In 13 of the 23 years, the average worker lost purchasing power." http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3192150
The difference is even greater when we recognize that the data curves for 1995-2003 are 'pumped-up' compared to prior years since the government revised how they measure inflation after 1995 compared to before. This made inflation-adjusted incomes shown on the chart after 1995 appear larger than had the prior measurement criteria been used. Without that 'pump-up', the income data for 1995-2003 would be much lower than shown - - further depressing the poor per year growth.
It is clear that median family's real income growth and ability to save was significantly degraded from 1970 to the present, compared to those prior to 1970. [even if one adjusts all 50 years to the Boskin Commission's possible adjustment of 1.1% less annual inflation, the period prior to 1970 experienced family income growth 3 times faster than after 1970. For more on the Boskin-CPI, see special CPI report (http://mwhodges.home.att.net/inflation.htm#cpi)].
Something had to give, and that something was more mothers had to go to work, leaving their children to daycare by others, family savings ratios fell and household debt ratios soared (2 charts below cover savings and debt)- - as families tried to keep up 'appearances' ('keeping up with the Jones') of improved living standards in the face of stagnant incomes. Lose-lose for families and their children.
Look again at the rising part of the 1st chart starting in 1947. Because family incomes grew much faster than inflation 1947-1969 it is simple to understand the reason most families required just one wage earner per family as sufficient for children to have choice of a full-time mother at home - - and to build family savings without increasing household debt ratios - - - - that is until 1970 when good income growth stopped as if hitting a brick wall.
Note the 2nd chart: in 1982-88, following tax cuts, incomes started rising again. But, fell again following historic tax increases.
Keep in mind an important point: the last 33 years above (1970-2003) of family income stagnation is for gross income, before tax. As you will see below, on an after-tax basis family incomes were falling due to increased tax rates at federal and state/local government levels. Lose-lose for families, compared to before.
Further, the charts make no distinction between families of federal, state and local government employees vs. private sector employees. Nearly all government employees have their incomes & health insurance protected from inflation, yet many private sector employees do not. And, as seen in the State & Local Government Report (http://mwhodges.home.att.net/state_local.htm), employees of state & local governments were growing in numbers several times faster than growth of the general population - - and the total compensation of said government employees was growing at much faster rates than those in the private sector. If government employee-families were subtracted from the above chart, it is most likely that which remains (being families of non-government employees) would show a sharp decline 1970 to today - - instead of stagnant-no-growth as shown. Should families of government workers do better than other citizens who 'pay the freight' with taxes?
Keep also in mind that this chart includes the earnings of senior citizen families who now earn more than seniors of prior generations. Obviously 2 wage-earner families without children, where both are college graduates and both employed as professionals, on average earned much better than did families with children where only the high-school-educated father is employed. Additionally, "today 24% of all blacks (compared to 14% of whites) are employed by federal, state or local government - - and about half of black professional males and two-thirds of black professional females work for some arm of government." (October 1995 issue of American Enterprise, pg. 33). Certainly such affirmative action results have helped many blacks compared to the past since general government inflation-protected pay and benefits are above private sector norms, and state & local government employee counts have soared much faster than population growth. Additionally, what about all those income re-distribution 'poverty' programs in the past 2 decades? Such certainly did not lift median family incomes per above chart. Despite more 2-earner childless couples, more of the families with children having both parents working, the increased income of blacks, more receiving college education, poverty programs, etc. - the above chart shows the median family with and without children has not faired well concerning real income, savings and debt.
Median Household Incomes Fell in 94% of the States - 1999-2005.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/1999-2006-income-drop-1.jpgLeft is a 2006 chart, showing the percentage decline in median household incomes from 1999-2005.
Nationwide incomes dropped 6%.
Note the dark orange colors showing those states where incomes dropped more than 10%.
Note also this chart shows that incomes fell in 94% of the states (47 of the 50 states) during that period. That's most conclusive.
Michigan's 12% was the worse, with incomes in some cities dropping as much as 24%.
Interestingly, this chart also shows incomes in Washington, D.C. actually gained, where reside maximum populations of federal government workers and private sector employees supporting them.
(chart source - 'Detroit Free Press'', John Flemming - 2006. Michigan data > http://www.freep.com/assets/static/pdf/2006/08/census0830.pdf)
It is apparent the more your household looked like the traditional family
(working father and stay-at-home mom with children),
the worse it fared economically since 1970.
Did economic pressure on families also negatively impact social values & family choices during recent decades?
Even married-couple families are under economic pressure,
while they send more wives into the work force than ever before.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/non-work-wifes.gifThe upper curve in this chart shows that married-couple families with the wives in the labor force increased their inflation-adjusted family incomes during the past 25 years.
The lower curve shows inflation-adjusted family incomes were stagnant to falling where the wives were not in the labor force, which reflects stagnant to falling real income of full-time working males during that period. That's a sharp departure from pre-1970 when wives could stay home and still family incomes rose twice as fast as inflation.
Although this chart clearly shows the motivation factor for wives entering the work force more than ever before, still these working wives only increased their family incomes over that 25 year period only about 0.8% per year ahead of inflation. Even that increase is way below what families were doing with but one wage earner prior to 1970 (as seen in the chart at the top of this report). Additionally, this meager gain is even more meager when we recognize that today's average female has more 'education' than prior generations, plus have the capacity to earn more than pre-1970 woman.
Of course, the lower curve shows a net decrease in income of families with non-working wives of about 0.2% per year below inflation.
Its clear that even married-couple families are under pressure, compared to prior generations. What about if they have children?

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/mothers.gif A DRAMATIC IMPACT compared to when I was young
2-PARENT FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN UNDER 6 YEARS,
BUT WITHOUT FULL-TIME MOTHERS
The left chart shows two years: 1950 vs. 1995 - - for the percent of working married mothers with children under age 6.
A 6 times increase in the percentage - - from 11% in 1950 to 64% in 1995.
Most likely, much of that surge was driven by money and the pressure on family incomes compared to 1950 - - much under pressure of falling real incomes of full-time working males (as shown in a later chart).
Certainly mothers matter to children and to their development, and are more important for their development than non-mothers.
Therefore, children with full-time mothers must benefit much more than those warehoused most of the day away from mother - but as this chart shows, a higher percentage of children than ever before do not benefit from full-time mothers.
Another piece of critical data: 76% of married working mothers with children age 6-17 were in the labor force in 1995. So, here too, huge percentages of married mothers are missing from their children in the prime years of education and discipline. This must impact the quality of education and respect. (data researched by Jack Taylor (jtaylor1@racc2000.com))
Families supported by one wage earner, another relevant statistic - - In 1950, 60% of married couple families had a single wage-earner, because income levels were sufficient. In 2000, only 10% of families had a single wage-earner.
Male Full-time workers - - 27 year Income Trends
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/male_female_income.gifThis chart shows the trends for the 27 years 1977-2004 of real median incomes of full-time year-round male workers - adjusted for inflation in constant 2004 dollars.
NOTE the long term wage decline of male workers (the red line).
The real (inflation-adjusted) income drop 1977-2005 was 9.4% - - meaning full-time working men lost ground for 2.8 decades - - despite having more education beyond high school. Declining real income of males certainly forced more mothers to the work-place to try and make up some of the loss - - leaving more children without the guidance and protection of a full-time mom.
The inflation-adjusted median income of females (full-time workers), after slowly rising for some years, has stagnated and fallen in the past 5 years according to the Labor Department.
The declining real incomes of males is one of the reasons we now hear that the 'one-wage earner family is dead.' But, as seen from the stagnant income line after 1970 shown in the chart top of this page, even with mothers leaving their children (to be raised by non-mothers) to join the workforce family incomes did not rise, and certainly not at the fast pace as experienced in 1947-70 when only dad was working.
According to MIT economist Lester Thurow (Economic Policy Institute symposium, 23 May 1997, Washington), most of the job growth in the last 30 years has been in the service sector. The number of hours worked by retail workers has fallen from slightly over 40 to 28. Retail wages, which were once comparable to those in manufacturing, have declined, and the retail sector shows negative productivity growth. The retail sector accounts for 74% of all part-time workers, including a large percentage of contingent workers. Thus not only have wages in the service sector declined, but workers in this sector have lost their benefits packages. Retail jobs account for 25% of job generation, says Thurow. The largest single industry in the country is currently the hospitality industry, another employer of part-time, benefit-less workers.
It will be seen in 2 charts to follow that during this latter period family rates of savings plunged, and consumer debt moved to historic highs.
On PBS Business News, 12/26/96, Dr. Lester Thurow of MIT reported: over the prior 22 years income was down 15% for males and 5% for females.
National Center for Policy Analysis- No. 178 (http://www.public-policy.org/%7Encpa/ea/eamj93/eamj93e.html):Government employee compensation grew much faster than private sector wages in almost every state. The excess pay to public employees, the equivalent of a major income transfer program, has sharply inhibited growth. Richard Vedder, "Economic Impact of Government Spending: A 50-State Analysis,"
Although farm workers represent a small part of our work force, inflation-adjusted wage declines have been even more severe - 20-25%. Remember, the above chart is for gross family income, not disposable income. Philip Martin, economist at U. of California at Davis: "In the 1960's farmers often provided free housing for their workers. But, after new laws were passed 10 years ago regulating such housing, many farmers ceased to provide lodging - sending workers looking for rental housing plus transportation, causing an enormous drop in disposable income." 31 March 1997, N. Y. Times News Service - Sarasota Herald.


Any questions?

[Will]

yeah, hard to tell hes retarded just by reading his retarded ideas.

I guess you missed it, what a surprise.

[LordChowder]

I guess you missed it, what a surprise.

i know, i got it that you were implying it takes a retard to know one, however most retards probably arent even aware they are retarded. because they are retarded. youre the one posting 9/11 conspiracy threads and trying to say they have even a shred of truth about them. whos the retard? the kid who doesnt know hes retarded and shits his pants, or the man who is able to comprehend logic (i think?) and still believes in urban myths. id rather shit my pants than listen to any of the stupid bullshit you spew on a regular basis.

[Inxile]

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[Grog]

hey that rhymed

[Will]

i know, i got it that you were implying it takes a retard to know one, however most retards probably arent even aware they are retarded. because they are retarded. youre the one posting 9/11 conspiracy threads and trying to say they have even a shred of truth about them. whos the retard? the kid who doesn't know hes retarded and shits his pants, or the man who is able to comprehend logic (i think?) and still believes in urban myths. id rather shit my pants than listen to any of the stupid bullshit you spew on a regular basis.

What does this have to do with 9/11? You seem to have a very skewed view of what I post about, mostly as of late, it has simply been politics. I have stayed away from the 9/11 stuff and focused on the results of that day only because so many are still in denial, like you for example.

However, since you bring it up. Urban myths eh? How about the official urban myth propagated by the 9/11 commission report. The myth that 19 hijackers (some of whom are still alive) commandeered four jumbo jetliners with box cutters, completely out danced our entire air defense, and, with minimal flight training, executed maneuvers worthy of stunt pilots to hit 75% of their tgts.

How about the myth that Osama Bin Laden orchestrated 9/11. A widely believed myth in this country (unless you are the FBI, for they do not link him to 9/11 in any way). Yet, in spite of these urban myths, we wage endless war all over the globe, with your boy Ahmadinijad next on deck, in the name of the "War on Terror" (that always makes me lol).

Without an ounce of truth? Ok, if what I have posteed about 9/11 is without an ounce of truth, debate me here and now on one aspect (an ounce we'll call it) of 9/11, just one. How is it that of the 19 hijackers still listed on the FBI's website as responsible for carrying out the attacks on 9/11 (which came out exactly one day after 9/11 occurred) eight are still alive to this day? How exactly do you reconcile that FACT with your belief in the official MYTH which states they all died carrying out their attacks?

[Will]

>< derailed my own thread, again.

[LordChowder]

wow no link whatsoever. i guess for a man not linked to the biggest attack on US soil, the wise thing would be to keep your mouth shut instead of releasing videos admitting to the crime. its also strange you cite information that links bush and osama as friendly acquaintances, and yet bush so easily turns his back on him and sicks multiple military forces after him, APPARENTLY DESPITE FBI INTELLIGENCE! geeze, such close personal bonds! i think you dont know the difference between no hard evidence, and no evidence. the fbi has NO HARD EVIDENCE to link a top official of a terrorist organization to a terrorist attack? wow, and i thought the good ol days of prohibition taught us it was easy to incarcerate a gang leader. look how easy it was for us to nab al capone on his only crime, tax evasion! if osama werent a shadow, and left a trail for the FBI to follow so easily, dont you think more of the attacks he planned (numerous) would have been avoided? avoiding law enforcement of any kind is what he does. HES A FUCKING TERRORIST. JESUS FUCK.

[Monroe]

Any questions?

Yes, I have a question, what does this article have to do with Fed, IRS or your crazy tax plan?

Anyway, if you wanna respond, better msn me or something or find some other site for us to post, im not planning to post on this piece of shit site anymore.

[Grog]

he's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack

[Damarus]

Lol I knew you wouldn't be able to resist monroe. I think I win :)

[Will]

Yes, I have a question, what does this article have to do with Fed, IRS or your crazy tax plan?

Anyway, if you wanna respond, better msn me or something or find some other site for us to post, im not planning to post on this piece of shit site anymore.

What happened to you man? This "piece of shit" site needs you, to many circle jerkers imo :p I don't msn so come on, I need you to debate me in the Chowder thread.

[Damarus]

You know what he will say though... "Amerikan buildings are strong! They don't just fall down. The workers nedded more guns. And it's those damn japaneses falt, becose we owned them in the war and now they skinny ass want revenge coz they are emo cry babies I owned them all at necro. I have a big willy" etc.

[Grog]

aw will wants the only person he can talk down to to come back. bless

[Talorth]

You know what he will say though... "Amerikan buildings are strong! They don't just fall down. The workers nedded more guns. And it's those damn japaneses falt, becose we owned them in the war and now they skinny ass want revenge coz they are emo cry babies I owned them all at necro. I have a big willy" etc.

this is correct.