Seriously America (This thread has been deleted. Any further posts are imaginary)

[Damarus]

You need to do something about your gun laws... This is just undescribably aweful...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=261454

[BLACK]

OLD

[Damarus]

Old? Was that a joke, coz like that was the headline on Australian news today o___O

I'll admit not being in america means I don't have all the infoz...

[BLACK]

It was semi sarcastic. This didn't happen because of gun laws. If a killer wanted to get his hands on a gun where guns are illegal, he could do so easily.

[Damarus]

From the information we have in Australia, it was over a love triangle, some kind of dispute with his girlfriend or something... I can't see him being some kind of hardcore assassin with access to black market guns or anything...

Seems to me he probly just waltzed into walmart or w/e and stocked up on ammo (note: from a not well informed Australian's point of view). In Australia you need a license and a reason to obtain a firearm legally. We've had like 1 gun rampage here, and after that there were much tighter gun laws brought in and ontop of that there was a scheme put in place called cash for guns, where you could get cash to hand your guns in. I'm fairly certain there's been nothing close to that since, and it was a freak incident in the first place. You guys seem to have them once every few years @.@

[BLACK]

If I wanted a gun, I could walk over to Frank's house and buy one. :P

[Damarus]

Well then we need to ban frank from America imo.

I know one person with guns in Australia, and he owns a farm... That's it. Just one person with a couple of rifles.

[LaEnana]

Guns aren't the problem. Fucked up people are.

[Damarus]

Fucked up people will always exist. They shouldn't have access to guns... I mean I just read an article that said this about the gun laws in that state:
- You dont need a license to own a firearm, but can only buy one pistol per month (per month what the fuck?)
- There is no waiting period to buy a gun
- You can buy semi-auto and automatic weapons
- If you are not an american citizen, there is only a 10 day waiting period to buy a gun pending a police check.

And that apparently, gets a C- rating, while 32 of your 50 states recieve a D-F. I can't even imagine what an F is if that's only a C-.....

[Zelaton]

The dude shot a girl and her RA in a dorm, and 2 hours later there was another shooting of 30 people in an engineering building on the other side of the campus, which I'm sure was him as well from listening to the news. If that was caused by a love triangle...thats wayyy fucked. Not to mention, this dude knew what he was doing according to the students who surived. He reloaded his 2 hand guns quickly and head shot most of the victims. That's not someone who walked into walmart and bought a gun, thats someone who is trained imo.

It's really sad to hear of another college shooting. Ohio has had 2 here, Kent State which was a long time ago, and Case Western which was 4 years ago.

[Talorth]

Yet innocent people die from car bombings every day and no one cares.. Interesting. I always thought dead was dead.

I certainly feel sorry for the people this happened to, but its just not making sense why a person would do this.

[Zebedee]

Our news seems to be focusing on how fat the cops are ^^

There was some American guy on Newsnight last night saying that gun laws aren't the problem, the problem was that all the students should have been armed in order to defend themselves...

This didn't happen because of gun laws. If a killer wanted to get his hands on a gun where guns are illegal, he could do so easily

That's interesting. Guns are illegal here but people can get them if they really want them. Last year 170 people were killed by guns in the UK, in America the figure was over 30,000. Now looking at those figures we can see that gun laws have nothing to do with gun related deaths, oh no, definitely not, it's just some sort of cruel coincidence. Maybe the gun owners of the UK are just really bad shots and their inability to hit anything keeps the numbers down, yes that must be it.

[Zebedee]

I just read blah and it seems that "if all the students had guns he could only have killed 2 or 3" view seems to be quite popular. Sometimes it seems that having teeth pulled is less painful than reading other people's thoughts :s

[LinnEva]

im a gangsta, ill pull my gat out and bust a cap in yo ass fool!!!!!!! fucc you!

[WiGgLr]

That's interesting. Guns are illegal here but people can get them if they really want them. Last year 170 people were killed by guns in the UK, in America the figure was over 30,000. Now looking at those figures we can see that gun laws have nothing to do with gun related deaths, oh no, definitely not, it's just some sort of cruel coincidence. Maybe the gun owners of the UK are just really bad shots and their inability to hit anything keeps the numbers down, yes that must be it.
19 shootings in 10 years (source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4371403.stm). I can only remember of 1 such shooting happening in the UK, but it may have been more than 10 years ago now.

I just read blah and it seems that "if all the students had guns he could only have killed 2 or 3" view seems to be quite popular. Sometimes it seems that having teeth pulled is less painful than reading other people's thoughts :s

That good old cowboy attitude, gotta love to hate it :D

[CharlieM]

He reloaded his 2 hand guns quickly and head shot most of the victims. That's not someone who walked into walmart and bought a gun, thats someone who is trained imo.



Nope, thats just a kid who plays too many games and realises that a critical hit to the head will kill in one shot.
Dont lower the importance of firearm safety and handling training, someone who was trained with firearms would not have killed the people in the first place, the aspect of safety and importance placed on human life when going through that training is neigh impossible to break.

The right to bear arms is an archaich right that had come about when the nation had no army to protect the people from foreign invaders, and no police force to protect the people from civil deviants.

The US now have both an army, and a police force. The right to bear arms is null, it should be a privelage, and it should be hard as fuck to get a gun.

Mutually Assured Desctruction only works so far as the other person is as sane as you are. Meanwhile you are making it a whole lot easier for the crazies to get a gun.

[Zebedee]

I wrote this on blah :S

This thread goes a long way to show how many stupid people there are in the world. There's no excuse for giving them guns.

Top tip: if you know nothing about the War of Independence, WW2, terrorism, European history, the American Constitution, the former Yugoslavia and how to fit into the human race, it's probably not a good idea to use elements of these concepts and events to justify your semi-retarded point of view.

Just a point that most Americans seem to miss; unlike the most vocal British poster in this thread, the majority of Europeans don't wish to see Americans being maimed, murdered and terrorised on our television screens. The reason we become so vociferous at times such as this is the complete incredulity that America seeks to do nothing to stop these things recurring. It's the inactivity and self justifying rhetoric that causes ridicule, not the deaths that result from it.

The UK had two terrible gun related incidents in the 80's, there was Michael Ryan at Hungerford and Thomas Hamilton at Dunblaine. UK gun laws were changed dramatically to avoid this happening again. Although gun crime is currently escalating among young black kids, most of the guns available are converted replicas from Europe which fire low calibre bullets or sometimes ball bearings, these result in many injuries but very few deaths. Last year there were 170 gun related deaths in the UK from a population of 65million. America has five times as many people yet nearly 200 times as many gun related murders. Proportionately more people die from accidental firearm discharge in America than are murdered with guns in the UK each year.

I'm sure there'll be some ill conceived and poorly worded knee-jerk responses to my post but at least consider this. For those people advocating the notion that if all the students were armed the murderer would have killed less of them, you consider the right to bear arms as fundamental, however outside your shores the real right is considered to be the right not to need to bear arms.

[WiGgLr]

Thank you, it's the Dunblaine incident that I vaguely remembered. I didn't realise it was nearly 20 years ago, but it made my point a lot stronger :D

[Zebedee]

I'm waiting for Will to explain how it was Donald Rumsfeld wearing a Bin Laden mask that shot them all.

[Talorth]

That's one thing i've never understood in North America; our need to keep guns within our homes so that in the case of burglary, we have some form of protection. It is so unlikely to be shot over something so petty, yet nonetheless we 'gun' ourselves up for defense.

It's all a bit sad really.

[Alrus]

Why even bother arguing with blah's usual people? Even if they're proven wrong they'll just pull up a Thingol and say something totally unrelated.

[Zebedee]

I was having a bored moment waiting for groceries to be delivered. I should have known better really. I'm waiting for DungeonMage to explain how it was the professors' fault for not over-enchanting thier skills and installing zoom hack.

[dejaVu]

I was having a bored moment waiting for groceries to be delivered. I should have known better really. I'm waiting for DungeonMage to explain how it was the professors' fault for not over-enchanting thier skills and installing zoom hack.

its all about the wall hack baby!

[Grog]

I'm waiting for Will to explain how it was Donald Rumsfeld wearing a Bin Laden mask that shot them all.
haha

[Zebedee]

Somebody stop me....

Reading blah made me realise that this guy at the university definitely shot the wrong people yesterday.

[Tengil]

Noone really deserves to die, no matter how stupid they are.

Im not saying people shouldnt be punished, Im just saying that noone deserves to die.

[Zebedee]

Noone really deserves to die, no matter how stupid they are.

Im not saying people shouldnt be punished, Im just saying that noone deserves to die.

Yeah I wouldn't really wish anyone dead. Maybe wish them to get hurt in the pants before they had chance to breed, but not dead.

[WiGgLr]

my god, I just read that blah thread

[Damascus]

I can't get on Blah, so I'm imagining...wow.

[Zebedee]

I can't get on Blah, so I'm imagining...wow.

Imagine it a bit worse than that...a bit worse again....then a bit worse again with dressing, that's how bad it is.

Thingol has informed the world that Americans need guns because if they didn't have guns they would all kill each other with knives like in Africa. His words not mine :s

[WiGgLr]

and SoulGlo says that their right to carry guns keeps the crime rate down

[Tengil]

It was a crazy Korean guy. Scary.

[Alrus]

"Guns counter guns" lol wow =/

[Grindrolas]

there is far too much stupid on blah :(

[Zengetsu]

There was a great Pen and Teller episode on the subject... covered both sides pretty well.. tried a youtube search and couldn't find it =/

[Faenorr]

Zel theres been 2 shootings like that in your state and you dont belive gun laws would help? The last one in canada was last year. He killed one person but injured a number of others. And with that were stepping up our laws. I think every weapon should be illeagle. But then again Canada isnt the biggest, maker, seller, and buyer of weapons. You guys will never have gun laws and kids will continue killing kids while the politicians pray to god.

[Zelaton]

Zel theres been 2 shootings like that in your state and you dont belive gun laws would help? The last one in canada was last year. He killed one person but injured a number of others. And with that were stepping up our laws. I think every weapon should be illeagle. But then again Canada isnt the biggest, maker, seller, and buyer of weapons. You guys will never have gun laws and kids will continue killing kids while the politicians pray to god.

Well, one college shooting was done by military...look it up, Kent State I belive it was in the 60's. The other was done by an indian teacher who went nuts at Case Western (he killed 2 people). I never said anything about gun laws in my statement. And I don't think playing video games gives you that much acuarcy on how to use a real firearm Charlie. I've played first person shooters, and I've used a real gun (hunting). Nothing a like...blaming it on games and not on the person(s) is retarded. Not to mention, people go crazy...they want to hurt people, whether they use guns, knives, or pipe bombs, someone will get hurt.

[Faenorr]

Well, one college shooting was done by military...look it up, Kent State I belive it was in the 60's. The other was done by an indian teacher who went nuts at Case Western (he killed 2 people). I never said anything about gun laws in my statement. And I don't think playing video games gives you that much acuarcy on how to use a real firearm Charlie. I've played first person shooters, and I've used a real gun (hunting). Nothing a like...blaming it on games and not on the person(s) is retarded. Not to mention, people go crazy...they want to hurt people, whether they use guns, knives, or pipe bombs, someone will get hurt.

Ya people are gonna go crazy but the more access people have to weapons the more ready they are to use them. When i did my basic i shot a c7 which is basically a m16 and i was surprised by how little kick the thing had. Iv never shot a pistol because you cant get a hold of em. Seriously in this case, picked up a gun (cuz im sure everyone in verginia has atleast one) probably shot em at a range and then snapped. Limit the access you limit the incidents.

[Grindrolas]

Well, one college shooting was done by military...look it up, Kent State I belive it was in the 60's. The other was done by an indian teacher who went nuts at Case Western (he killed 2 people). I never said anything about gun laws in my statement. And I don't think playing video games gives you that much acuarcy on how to use a real firearm Charlie. I've played first person shooters, and I've used a real gun (hunting). Nothing a like...blaming it on games and not on the person(s) is retarded. Not to mention, people go crazy...they want to hurt people, whether they use guns, knives, or pipe bombs, someone will get hurt.
People who blame things like this on video games are very ignorant.

[Zengetsu]

Limit the access to what?.... he was just a normal guy who snapped wasn't he... there is only so much we can do. We don't give phys-co analyzing to people when they wanna buy a hand gun.

Shit happens and you can't always prevent it, my teachers always told us in high school "If someone really wanted to come in here and start shooting we couldn't stop them untill after the fact, we don't have some magic barrier to keep crazy people out"

[Faenorr]

People who blame things like this on video games are very ignorant.

Yea im pretty sure jack thompson already blamed violent games for this.

[Grindrolas]

Yea im pretty sure jack thompson already blamed violent games for this.
He did, and Dr. Phil jumped on the bandwagon with him. Funny how nothing has been mentioned about how this kid did or did not play them...

[Faenorr]

He did, and Dr. Phil jumped on the bandwagon with him. Funny how nothing has been mentioned about how this kid did or did not play them...

Probably Dance Dance Revolution...

It pisses me off how they look for a scape goat... just make guns illeagle!!

[Grindrolas]

Probably Dance Dance Revolution...

It pisses me off how they look for a scape goat... just make guns illeagle!!
that would make far too much sense, come on now...

[Will]

This act was a tragedy. A tragedy that could have been avoided or lessened by allowing the students at VaTech to carry guns. What the gun control folks never seem to take into account is that criminals will always get guns if they want them. Banning citizens from carrying guns only affects those that would abide by the law. The second amendment of the constitution guarantees us the right to bear arms.

If those other kids had guns, they wouldn't have had to barricade themselves into rooms hoping the bad guy couldn't get in, they could have fought back.

[Faenorr]

This act was a tragedy. A tragedy that could have been avoided or lessened by allowing the students at VaTech to carry guns. What the gun control folks never seem to take into account is that criminals will always get guns if they want them. Banning citizens from carrying guns only affects those that would abide by the law. The second amendment of the constitution guarantees us the right to bear arms.

If those other kids had guns, they wouldn't have had to barricade themselves into rooms hoping the bad guy couldn't get in, they could have fought back.

"well i could of stoped the whole thing but i left my gun by the bathroom sink."

Where are the iraqi's right to bare arms?

[Alrus]

Hi, my country has a very strict gun policy, we have gun murder, but it's really nothing bad, yeah people can get guns if they really want to, but it's a pain in the ass to get some and most people don't want to take the risk. Simple as that.

And PLEASE don't bring the stupid "But you can kill with knives too!", it's true, but you won't be able to kill 33 persons alone with a knife.

[WiGgLr]

This act was a tragedy. A tragedy that could have been avoided or lessened by allowing the students at VaTech to carry guns. What the gun control folks never seem to take into account is that criminals will always get guns if they want them. Banning citizens from carrying guns only affects those that would abide by the law. The second amendment of the constitution guarantees us the right to bear arms.

If those other kids had guns, they wouldn't have had to barricade themselves into rooms hoping the bad guy couldn't get in, they could have fought back.

Personally, I'd rather not shoot someone and live with the knowledge that I had caused the death of another human being, regardless of the legality of it.

That's something you will live with forever. Giving everyone guns is not the answer

[Will]

"well i could of stoped the whole thing but i left my gun by the bathroom sink."

Where are the iraqi's right to bare arms?

We took it away.

[Will]

Personally, I'd rather not shoot someone and live with the knowledge that I had caused the death of another human being, regardless of the legality of it.

That's something you will live with forever. Giving everyone guns is not the answer

I would prefer to keep my karma intact as well; however, if someone is shooting at you and 20 other people in the room, are you gonna just sit there and hop he ignores you?

Having the right to bear arms and bearing them can save your life.

[WiGgLr]

We took it away.
How hypocritical of you

by America's own definition, the Iraqi's are not free because you took away their right to bear arms

I would prefer to keep my karma intact as well; however, if someone is shooting at you and 20 other people in the room, are you gonna just sit there and hop he ignores you?

Having the right to bear arms and bearing them can save your life.

So what will the Iraqi's do?

[LinnEva]

This act was a tragedy. A tragedy that could have been avoided or lessened by allowing the students at VaTech to carry guns. What the gun control folks never seem to take into account is that criminals will always get guns if they want them. Banning citizens from carrying guns only affects those that would abide by the law. The second amendment of the constitution guarantees us the right to bear arms.

If those other kids had guns, they wouldn't have had to barricade themselves into rooms hoping the bad guy couldn't get in, they could have fought back.

a school with thousands of guns is the safest place alright.

what if someone gets in a fight, bam, or someone trips, bam, someone accidentaly drops their gun, bam. bam fucking bam. i wouldnt go to a school where everyone could have a gun.

just cause you got a gun doesnt make it safer. just more likely that anything will end in gunfire.

[Faenorr]

Not having that right in your constitution could have saved how many over the past 20 years? Show me in what instance having that right has defended agianst any attacks like this? Where has this done anyone good? "Oh he was about to shoot up the store but this heroic person shot him dead first" Ya we hear that a lot.

If someone is going to get a weapon he will get it, that is a given. If you make it harder to make a weapon an impulse buy than it defends against people making rash decisions. Its taking that option away from people that is the biggest thing for me. If they dont have this happen multiple times a year.

[Will]

a school with thousands of guns is the safest place alright.

what if someone gets in a fight, bam, or someone trips, bam, someone accidentaly drops their gun, bam. bam fucking bam. i wouldnt go to a school where everyone could have a gun.

just cause you got a gun doesnt make it safer. just more likely that anything will end in gunfire.

It DOES make it/you safer when some fucking pathetic loser decides to start shooting anyone and everyone he comes across.

I don't buy the whole safety argument because anyone who carries a gun better know and observe basic firearm safety. If they don't, just like with a car or anything else dangerous, they lose their license to carry/use it.

[Will]

Not having that right in your constitution could have saved how many over the past 20 years? Show me in what instance having that right has defended agianst any attacks like this? Where has this done anyone good? "Oh he was about to shoot up the store but this heroic person shot him dead first" Ya we hear that a lot.

If someone is going to get a weapon he will get it, that is a given. If you make it harder to make a weapon an impulse buy than it defends against people making rash decisions. Its taking that option away from people that is the biggest thing for me. If they dont have this happen multiple times a year.

Your argument supposes that someone who really wanted to shoot up a school would be somehow dissuaded by a bit tougher time getting a gun. Ok, maybe they would go for a home made bomb instead.

As for an instance of it making someone safer, I can simply paint you a picture:

Imagine you are with your kids at the park. Off in the distance (about 30yards away) there is a guy who has just begun shooting people. You have a gun and it is loaded. The gunman turns 'tword you and your family. Being the protector you are, you draw your pistol and fire, sending the gunman to his maker.

Or, you could find yourself in that situation unarmed, which do you prefer?

[LinnEva]

I would prefer to keep my karma intact as well; however, if someone is shooting at you and 20 other people in the room, are you gonna just sit there and hop he ignores you?

Having the right to bear arms and bearing them can save your life.

i doubt it he would even have had a gun if it had been illegal!

having a gun doesnt save lives, it takes lives, thats what its there for.

here is some nice logic from l2blah

guns counter guns.
he got a gun, shoot him, everyone goes down in a blazing fire.

lets see how this goes

nuclear warhead counters nuclear warhead

how many does america have? we must all have some!
Bush: oh no they got warhead, nuke them!
some country: americans nuking us, nuke them back!

[LinnEva]

It DOES make it/you safer when some fucking pathetic loser decides to start shooting anyone and everyone he comes across.

I don't buy the whole safety argument because anyone who carries a gun better know and observe basic firearm safety. If they don't, just like with a car or anything else dangerous, they lose their license to carry/use it.


in norway some cops dont even have guns, there is no need for it, use non-lethal weapons.
you would be pretty hardcore criminal to get a gun, there might be 1 gun incident a year in this country. by your standards, if everyone could have a gun, there wouldnt be any gun incidents then.

[WiGgLr]

terrorism counters terrorism



oh yeah, so it did

[Grindrolas]

Will, I've been agreeing with you on the priorities of your law enforcement, but just fucking wow. You can't honestly believe that arming everyone is the answer. That is god damn ignorant. We don't have the issues you do up here in Canada, how do you explain that?

[Faenorr]

Seriously please read your own sig Will. The reason half the people have a gun is beaause they are scared the other half is crazy and will shoot everyone up. Its like i need a gun beacuse this other guy with a gun might go crazy so if i have a gun i can defend myself. then both of em go crazy and shoot someone anyway.

Anyways heres dr.phil's bright remark

“The problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you - that if these people are playing videogames (http://gonintendo.com/?p=16366#)where they’re on a mass killing spree in a video game, it’s glamorized on the big screen, it’s become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath, or someone suffering from mental illness, add in a dose of rage, the suggestability is just too high. And we’re going to have to start dealing with that. We’re going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murderers of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.” - Dr. Phil on Larry King Live

[Grindrolas]

yeah its fucking retarded, but atleast Dr. Phil included the movie industry in his spat of retardedness.

[Will]

How hypocritical of you

by America's own definition, the Iraqi's are not free because you took away their right to bear arms



So what will the Iraqi's do?

I agree with there is hypocrisy inherint; I'm not, nor was I ever for the Iraq war. I guess they have to rely on us to protect them. Actually, that illustrates my point, gun control doesn't work.

[Grindrolas]

I agree with there is hypocrisy inherint; I'm not, nor was I ever for the Iraq war. I guess they have to rely on us to protect them. Actually, that illustrates my point, gun control doesn't work.
Thats a VERY ignorant statement. You don't know that it doesn't work, America has never tried it because of their hickish stance on their out-dated constitution.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/default_e.asp <- For my southern friends who think gun control wouldn't work, heres what we have in Canada.

[LinnEva]

I agree with there is hypocrisy inherint; I'm not, nor was I ever for the Iraq war. I guess they have to rely on us to protect them. Actually, that illustrates my point, gun control doesn't work.

so gun control doesnt work in a country you fucked up, the people are split and doing all kinds of holy war, fighting the invaders and without proper government and policeforce. go figure.

[Will]

in norway some cops dont even have guns, there is no need for it, use non-lethal weapons.
you would be pretty hardcore criminal to get a gun, there might be 1 gun incident a year in this country. by your standards, if everyone could have a gun, there wouldnt be any gun incidents then.

My rationale is this country was founded on certain inalienable rights. One of those rights is the right to keep and bear arms. I want the right to defend myself if threatened. I want the right to not have to rely on the government (who clearly could do nothing to save those kids). I want the right to not have to sit under a desk and hope the bad guy skips my room.

[Will]

so gun control doesnt work in a country you fucked up, the people are split and doing all kinds of holy war, fighting the invaders and without proper government and policeforce. go figure.

No need to make it personal, I didn't fuck anything up. However, I do bear responsibility for what my government has done in my name. As such, I write, post and discuss my governments missteps in the hope that that I can inform others of the current situation in our country.

I agree with your assessment, we FUBAR'd Iraq.

[Grindrolas]

My rationale is this country was founded on certain inalienable rights. One of those rights is the right to keep and bear arms. I want the right to defend myself if threatened. I want the right to not have to rely on the government (who clearly could do nothing to save those kids). I want the right to not have to sit under a desk and hope the bad guy skips my room.
Your country was founded on those rights a long time ago when big bad Britain wanted to keep you under its empire. Maybe those rights are a bit out dated now, no?

[LinnEva]

i wouldnt wanna live in a country where people need guns to feel safe.

who the hell sits under their desk if there is a guy with a gun in the building.
its like the damn movies, there is a crazy guy in the house but the people keep trying to hide inside the house, or people getting chased by a car and just run straight forward.

[Will]

Thats a VERY ignorant statement. You don't know that it doesn't work, America has never tried it because of their hickish stance on their out-dated constitution.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/default_e.asp <- For my southern friends who think gun control wouldn't work, heres what we have in Canada.

The country was founded on the Constitution; is is our defining document. It isn't outdated, it is the basis of our entire judicial system. This isn't Canada or Europe, it's America. We like our guns. And if someone tries to take them away, it will have to be out of our cold dead fingers.

[LinnEva]

No need to make it personal, I didn't fuck anything up. However, I do bear responsibility for what my government has done in my name. As such, I write, post and discuss my governments missteps in the hope that that I can inform others of the current situation in our country.

I agree with your assessment, we FUBAR'd Iraq.

wasnt personal, you was meant as usa. not you personal.

im not native english speaking :o

[Will]

wasnt personal, you was meant as usa. not you personal.

im not native english speaking :o

No problemo :)

[LinnEva]

And if someone tries to take them away, it will have to be out of our cold dead fingers.

and that is how it will end.

[Grindrolas]

The country was founded on the Constitution; is is our defining document. It isn't outdated, it is the basis of our entire judicial system. This isn't Canada or Europe, it's America. We like our guns. And if someone tries to take them away, it will have to be out of our cold dead fingers.
Then I'm going to start working on a magical system that will allow me to seperate Canada from the US geographically, cause FUCK if I'm staying connected to a country filled with retards that think carrying a gun is the solution to all problems...

[Faenorr]

Will is the only one here that is american and the only one that is defending this stupid notion that more guns makes a safer country. Blah seriously is making my head hurt because of how many retards are there. Look at every other country that has gun laws and has criminals but doesnt have mass school shootings 3 times a year

[Grindrolas]

Will is the only one here that is american and the only one that is defending this stupid notion that more guns makes a safer country. Blah seriously is making my head hurt because of how many retards are there. Look at every other country that has gun laws and has criminals but doesnt have mass school shootings 3 times a year
In before will calls Adam out on his 3 times a year comment. Guess what Will, its an exageration, comment on something else :p

[Faenorr]

In before will calls Adam out on his 3 times a year comment. Guess what Will, its an exageration, comment on something else :p

yea but atleast two. There was one in Colorado last year, one in the amish school and maybe another one somewhere.

[Will]

Your country was founded on those rights a long time ago when big bad Britain wanted to keep you under its empire. Maybe those rights are a bit out dated now, no?

My rights and personal freedoms will never be outdated.

[gen3tic]

Yes, because obviously having guns means that gun crime will happen:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

Banning guns obviously lowers gun crime rates:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

[Grindrolas]

Yes, because obviously having guns means that gun crime will happen:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

When a renegade marine, or national guardsman shoots up a school, that post there will become relevant

Banning guns obviously lowers gun crime rates:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
Those are some up-to-date stats you got there. The point still stands that since the ban there has not been a mass murder in the UK in over 10 years...

[Will]

Will is the only one here that is american and the only one that is defending this stupid notion that more guns makes a safer country. Blah seriously is making my head hurt because of how many retards are there. Look at every other country that has gun laws and has criminals but doesnt have mass school shootings 3 times a year

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. The lowest crime rates (in the US) are in areas where most of the citizens carry guns believe it or not. I will try to dig up some stats.

BTW, one of the biggest gun control advocates in history was Adolf Hitler. He had a very safe society for the nazis in Germany; everyone else in Germany at the time had a very different perspective.

I will never willingly give up ANY of my rights to a government that is, increasingly, seeking to take them. To suggest we just give up our rights so the government can protect us is more then a bit naive, and more then a bit dangerous.

As to comparing America to other countries that don't have our population density/ethnic diversity, well, there really isn't a comparison is there.

[Will]

and that is how it will end.

You may be right.

[Will]

Then I'm going to start working on a magical system that will allow me to seperate Canada from the US geographically, cause FUCK if I'm staying connected to a country filled with retards that think carrying a gun is the solution to all problems...

Good luck with that one since our respective governments seem to be moving things in the opposite direction. North American Union anyone?

[Grindrolas]

Good luck with that one since our respective governments seem to be moving things in the opposite direction. North American Union anyone?
Not going to happen, do you have any idea what kind of uprising the government here would have on their hands if they suggested we become one with the US? Harper is a wannabe Bush, once he's out of office things will be back to normal.

[Faenorr]

Yes, because obviously having guns means that gun crime will happen:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1566715.stm

Banning guns obviously lowers gun crime rates:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

The Switzerland article makes sense because people are taught responsability early on. But the second two are stats from 6-7 years ago. Im sure the gun crime rate has gone down since then with all the work to seize illeagle fire arms.

Not going to happen, do you have any idea what kind of uprising the government here would have on their hands if they suggested we become one with the US? Harper is a wannabe Bush, once he's out of office things will be back to normal.

yep

[Faenorr]

I will never willingly give up ANY of my rights to a government that is, increasingly, seeking to take them.

32 people had their rights taken from thme yesterday and you defend the right to buy a weapon at wal-mart, the right to walk with a gun in your pocket. You are out of it.

[Will]

Not going to happen, do you have any idea what kind of uprising the government here would have on their hands if they suggested we become one with the US? Harper is a wannabe Bush, once he's out of office things will be back to normal.

Would it be an armed uprising? You should check out the following links:

http://www.spp.gov/

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=15233

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=North_American_Union

You might wanna rethink your gun ownership stance if you are to have an uprising.

[Grindrolas]

32 people had their rights taken from thme yesterday and you defend the right to buy a weapon at wal-mart, the right to walk with a gun in your pocket. You are out of it.
Well maybe they should have been exercising THEIR right to carry a gun :rolleyes:

[Will]

32 people had their rights taken from thme yesterday and you defend the right to buy a weapon at wal-mart, the right to walk with a gun in your pocket. You are out of it.

First off, you don't know where this kid got the gun so your argument isn't valid. I agree that 32 people died and it was extremely fucked up. However, taking away our right to bear arms doesn't bring those folks back and certainly doesn't make us any safer. How is it safer to be completely helpless?

Are you aware of how many shootings have been cut short because someone else had a gun? If you want to ban that which is truly dangerous, ban humans, we are the one's pulling the triggers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

That article is a bit outdated but it does show what happens after you ban guns.

[gen3tic]

So just because it's a few years old the data isn't relevant? Gun laws were made stricter, gun crime went up.

More recent:
http://www.globalnet.co.uk/news/article.asp?cat=Culture&aid=17192921
http://galloway.wordpress.com/2006/09/11/gun-crime-in-the-uk/
http://www.bloggernews.net/14139

I can find plenty more.

[HooB]

Are you aware of how many shootings have been cut short because someone else had a gun? If you want to ban that which is truly dangerous, ban humans, we are the one's pulling the triggers.

Are you aware that those shootings might not even have happened if you couldn't buy a gun at wal-mart

[gen3tic]

Just google things like North American Union, Superslab highway, etc if you think they aren't already working on it. I posted that article Will, but apparently because it's old it is somehow not applicable :confused: .

[Talorth]

I don't understand the need to defend yourself with arms. I don't live in the states, but how could you honestly feel threatened enough?

If someone comes into your house on the motive that they want to steal, they aren't threatening your life.

[Will]

Are you aware that those shootings might not even have happened if you couldn't buy a gun at wal-mart

Are you aware that if the other students had guns, they would have most likely shot and killed the gunman before he had a chance to walk all over creation shooting people at his leisure? Are you also aware that criminals illegally purchase and use guns everyday in this country?

Taking guns away from law abiding citizens (gun control) will not make us safer; it will make criminals even more dangerous then they already are.

[Will]

I don't understand the need to defend yourself with arms. I don't live in the states, but how could you honestly feel threatened enough?

If someone comes into your house on the motive that they want to steal, they aren't threatening your life.

We have some crazy mofos here. We have people who hate other people because of the color of their skin, and would kill if they could conceivably get away with it. We have people who will kill you and take your baby away because you had it our of wedlock. The government has shown time and again that it is unable to protect us. That is why the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms (so we can protect ourselves).

[Will]

Just google things like North American Union, Superslab highway, etc if you think they aren't already working on it. I posted that article Will, but apparently because it's old it is somehow not applicable :confused: .

Yeah, I made a thread about it some time ago and still, no one is listening. This type of stuff has to be repeated over and over again because it is very difficult to believe your own government would sell you out to corporate interests to the extent of erasing national sovereignty.

[Talorth]

Isn't that the responsibility of the police?
The fact of the matter is, the majority of guns in the United States are not registered, that essential makes them illegal. I don't care about the right to bare arms, they have illegal weaponry.

Illogical to me, that everyone everywhere should walk around with a gun in their pocket for protection.

It seems to me will that you think that almost somewhere someone is out to get you at any moment, when in reality that is most probably not true.

I just don't understand why everyone should think they need guns. The united states is ass backwards with this. Instead of getting to the root of the problem, attack video games and people buy more guns.

[Talorth]

We have some crazy mofos here. We have people who hate other people because of the color of their skin, and would kill if they could conceivably get away with it. We have people who will kill you and take your baby away because you had it our of wedlock. The government has shown time and again that it is unable to protect us. That is why the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms (so we can protect ourselves).

I thought the united states was 'the greatest nation' in the world? Oprah sure gloats about it alot. If people feel that unsafe then it is certainly not the greatest nation in the world.

[Extarian]

I think Americans could probably benefit from having some of their rights taken away.

[Will]

Isn't that the responsibility of the police?
The fact of the matter is, the majority of guns in the United States are not registered, that essential makes them illegal. I don't care about the right to bare arms, they have illegal weaponry.

Illogical to me, that everyone everywhere should walk around with a gun in their pocket for protection.

It seems to me will that you think that almost somewhere someone is out to get you at any moment, when in reality that is most probably not true.

I just don't understand why everyone should think they need guns. The united states is ass backwards with this. Instead of getting to the root of the problem, attack video games and people buy more guns.

Well, I'll give you points for the segue into calling me paranoid but, is it paranoia to think people are trying to kill you when people are trying to kill you? (<-Joke attempt).

The real problem isn't guns, its violence. Absent guns and with a will to do violence, people will find another way to kill. Homemade bombs would most likely replace guns as the weapon of choice (see the Jihadist and the IED). They are simple to make and very effective.

Therefore, I would prefer to stay armed until the human race is ready to accept all of its members as equals, and comes to the epiphany of understanding that harming others is the same as harming yourself.

/holds breath

[Will]

I think Americans could probably benefit from having some of their rights taken away.

We already have had some of our rights taken away. We haven't benefited. Trust me, I was there.

[Extarian]

Probably need a copy of Australian law shoved down your populations throat.

[Will]

Probably need a copy of Australian law shoved down your populations throat.

How about I shove something down your throat



Comment: Has anyone bashing America over this incident bothered to factor in the realization that this "Student" was on a "Visa" from "SOUTH KOREA"????????

[Extarian]

Unfortunately, travelling through customs to enter Australia would probably leave you with nothing more dangerous then harsh language.

It is unfortunate that the majority of other nations are incapable of viewing themselves without the general Nationalistic viewpoint they are raised with.

I blame parents, the media, and the countries themselves for remaining segregated on an individual planet.

With some luck humanity will wipe itself out within the next twenty years or so.

[Will]

Unfortunately, travelling through customs to enter Australia would probably leave you with nothing more dangerous then harsh language.

It is unfortunate that the majority of other nations are incapable of viewing themselves without the general Nationalistic viewpoint they are raised with.

I blame parents, the media, and the countries themselves for remaining segregated on an individual planet.

With some luck humanity will wipe itself out within the next twenty years or so.


If I was so motivated, and having been to Australia I can say this, I am sure I could find myself a gun. Gun crimes exist in your country, do they not? Or do you just shoot at Kangaroos?

[Archaos]

I'm actually going to agree with Will on something for once.

Make a law to take away all the guns and your left with a bunch of helpless people.
Criminals break the law, thats why they are criminals. They are going to have guns regardless of how strict gun laws are.

[Will]

I thought the united states was 'the greatest nation' in the world? Oprah sure gloats about it alot. If people feel that unsafe then it is certainly not the greatest nation in the world.

It isn't that we feel unsafe per se, its that we acknowledge reality and prepare for it. Not sure if I agree with Oprah though, not anymore :/

[Will]

I'm actually going to agree with Will on something for once.

Make a law to take away all the guns and your left with a bunch of helpless people.
Criminals break the law, thats why they are criminals. They are going to have guns regardless of how strict gun laws are.

Yeah, sure you agree, when it isn't my thread :p

[Medicalelf]

What is the process in buying a gun in the US?

[BLACK]

Walk in to Wal Mart. Buy shotgun.

[Will]

What is the process in buying a gun in the US?

The process is state specific. Generally, to own a handgun, you need to obtain a license (again, the requirements of what it takes to actually get a license in a given state varies). Buying rifles/shotguns are usually easier.

[Talorth]

I'm actually going to agree with Will on something for once.

Make a law to take away all the guns and your left with a bunch of helpless people.
Criminals break the law, thats why they are criminals. They are going to have guns regardless of how strict gun laws are.

There are 6 guns per person in Canada, how come we don't have as many gun related deaths per person?

People will always find ways to get guns, of course; however it makes it much more difficult, and much easier to manage on a general level.

I'm not even for taking away guns entirely, I just think quite frankly its TOO easy for people to get these guns. Of course north america is too busy fighting some religious holy war in the middle east with both time and money to care about what happens domestically.

The real problem isn't guns, its violence. Absent guns and with a will to do violence, people will find another way to kill. Homemade bombs would most likely replace guns as the weapon of choice

Although I agree that people will always find ways to kill people, you are comparing two different things. Number one being that those jihadist feel a reason to fight for it, I doubt this person in this incidient we are talking about would take the time to make a suicide bomb. Also, most countries where there are jihadists are very unstable.

I think what we are talking about here is how much these people actually want to commit violence, I do agree that they would find alternatives. But as it stands, it is far too easy to get weapons both illegaly and legally.

[Medicalelf]

I would be mad if I can't get a gun or a shotgun. I need something to protect myself at home when I am alone.

[Will]

There are 6 guns per person in Canada, how come we don't have as many gun related deaths per person?

People will always find ways to get guns, of course; however it makes it much more difficult, and much easier to manage on a general level.

I'm not even for taking away guns entirely, I just think quite frankly its TOO easy for people to get these guns. Of course north america is too busy fighting some religious holy war in the middle east with both time and money to care about what happens domestically.



Although I agree that people will always find ways to kill people, you are comparing two different things. Number one being that those jihadist feel a reason to fight for it, I doubt this person in this incidient we are talking about would take the time to make a suicide bomb. Also, most countries where there are jihadists are very unstable.

I think what we are talking about here is how much these people actually want to commit violence, I do agree that they would find alternatives. But as it stands, it is far too easy to get weapons both illegaly and legally.

In comparing to Jihadists, my point was only to illustrate that there are other, even more effective ways to kill should one so desire. I hear you on the ease of procuring weapons but again, that isn't the problem.

We humans are still behaving in subhuman ways. Until such time as we can collectively evolve, I'll keep my firearm close to my side. Like my best friend says in describing us: humans are psychotic hairless apes.

[Will]

I would be mad if I can't get a gun or a shotgun. I need something to protect myself at home when I am alone.

QFT

And I say that because a man doesn't have to be armed with a gun to victimize a woman. Generally (but not always), a woman needs a gun defend herself against a man intent on things the woman isn't intent on.

[BLACK]

That's because men are superior to women in every way except sex slaves. And Tal is working on that.

[Emillia]

OK so I am going into this knowing i am going to get flamed... but I'm doing it anyways.

I am American, born and raised. I live in Oregon. I am surrounded by mountains and trees and a shit ton of red necks and hillbillies. I was raised by a man that owned 3 rifles and 2 hand guns. The rifles where used strictly for hunting. Still are. The hand guns where used by my parents when they where hiking or hunting mushrooms, as there are so many cougar and bears. (yeah I know, toally redneck.. but there are gourmet mushrooms that grow wild in the surrounding mountains that sell for quite a bit) . A hand gun is much easier to carry in THAT instance than a rifle. I have been raised around guns my whole life. My father was an avid hunter my whole childhood. In High School it was nothing to see 15 or more trucks with rifles hanging in the back windows during hunting seasons. I have even hunted on many occasions.

In 1996 My brother, who was 15, was shot point blank in the head by a kid he went to school with, while he was AT school, over a date to prom. With a hand gun that the kid bought from someone who and bought it from someone else. My family still does NOT blame the gun, or the manufacturer of the gun. It was that individuals choice to pull that trigger. What we also blame is the lack of restrictions placed on buying guns privately. We also blame the law enforcement officials for not knowing laws pertaining to having guns. There are so many laws in place already to regulate the purchase of NEW guns, yet very few to regulate private sales.

In my opinion, and this has been my opinion since BEFORE my brother was killed, There is NO reason for a person to own a hand gun other than to kill another person. While they might be more convenient to carry while hiking or hunting mushrooms, if your that worried, carry a rifle. Hand guns are meant for up close combat. The ONLY people that should have access to hand guns are law enforcement and the military. Hand guns have no other use other than to kill people. The US already has plenty of gun laws. The law officials need to be aware of them all. Our local district attorney in Oregon, didn't even know it was illegal to have guns on school grounds, or in a public place.

It is also my opinion that we now live in a society that has become almost immune the sight of others dieing. I am NOT blaming violent video games, or violent movies. BUT.. When you see something like this everyday.. Be it real or fake, you become desensitized to it. Its nothing to go to the movies and see something along the lines of a bad guy shooting up innocents. In video games you are actually rewarded for killing other people. Turn on the news and its talking about This person being killed, This country being bombed, This many people died... Just like cocaine, the more of it you ingest, the more of a tolerance you build up. Its just not shocking anymore. Couple that with the fact that we also live in a society where criminals that have murdered dozens of people with eye witnesses are allowed to plead not guilty. We live in a society where parents no longer discipline their children for fear of being accused of abuse. We live in a society where innocent until proven guilty means you can do anything you want, cause with the right excuse, your gonna get off. Children are no longer taught that you must accept the consequences of your actions. And again with the right excuse your gonna get off. Our prison system is filled with people that have raped and murdered and have been sentanced to death and have been waiting for years and years due to appeals. Again we are being told that there is ALWAYS a way for you to not have to accept responsibility for your actions. Couple all this shit together and your have some fucked up people.

Times have DRASTICALLY changed since the Constitution was written. It needs to be adapted to modern day times and not be stuck back in 1787 when it was written and signed. The country has changed since then. I can guarantee that back then, while everyone might have OWNED a gun, our forefathers where not as apt to use them on each other as what we are today.

I am for hand gun control. I am for hand guns being banned. I am for stricter laws regarding gun purchasing and ownership.

The man that did this shooting was flagged as being potentially dangerous. His creative writing teacher warned the school authorities and counselors about him because his writings where so disturbing, and yet nothing was done.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18161472/site/newsweek/

Again we live in a society where you can be sick and twisted and nothing can be done until you harm another for fear of infringing on your constitutional rights. Our constitution needs to be fixed.

[Talorth]

Exactly Black.

[Grindrolas]

We have some crazy mofos here. We have people who hate other people because of the color of their skin, and would kill if they could conceivably get away with it. We have people who will kill you and take your baby away because you had it our of wedlock. The government has shown time and again that it is unable to protect us. That is why the founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms (so we can protect ourselves).
You don't think they exist else where? We have the SAME people here, amazing how they don't go on random fucking killing sprees, despite a majority of our citizens, except those who hunt, being gunless. Yours, and a lot of other peoples, logic on this matter is FUCKED UP. You don't NEED guns, you (as a nation) have lived with the right for so long that you feel its a god damn necessity, when it isn't. Essentially, what you're saying is, you have the right to take someones life if you feel threatened by them. Sorry, thats wrong. I feel threatened plenty of times living in this big city, especially when I had just moved here, but at no time did I feel the NEED to arm myself.

I don't know a single person that owns a gun, surprisingly none of them have been randomly victimized.

ps, anyone who has zero knowledge of criminal activity in Canada needs to google Hells Angels, one of the many notorious biker gangs in Canada.

As Talorth has said, I'm not for removing your guns, but good christ you need to get a handle on the situation. Two incidents like this in LESS than 10 years? I'm sorry, the solution isn't arming everyone. If you honestly think that will stop violence, you're clinically insane.

Further thinking though, I suppose your law enforcement officers are too busy busting 6 year olds because of temper tantrums...

ps, anyone who has zero knowledge of criminal activity in Canada needs to google Hells Angels...

[Talorth]

QFT

And I say that because a man doesn't have to be armed with a gun to victimize a woman. Generally (but not always), a woman needs a gun defend herself against a man intent on things the woman isn't intent on.

What happens when both of them have guns?

[BLACK]

Dawn of the Dead anyone?

[Zelaton]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6563565.stm

He's not even American (he has dual citizenship, but hes Korean), legally he cannot buy a gun. Yet, he still got one and shot 30 people. Obviously a law against guns would not have helped this situation.

I, like Emi grew up around guns. My dad, brother & cousins hunt, my dad owns probably 15+ rifles, hand guns, shot guns, and even bows & cross bows. They're always locked up or in a gun case while in travel. I guess if you grew up around them you would feel different on the gun laws. I Don't blame guns for murders, blame the person(s). Making law's against guns is not going to help, people will aquire them no matter what. Or use alternate weapons like bombs (go look on google how easy it is to make a pipe bomb).

[griefingtrash]

and that is how it will end.



no it wont end b/c the government knows better then to try and force its citezens to turn in thier legal, registered guns.

[Archaos]

Dawn of the Dead anyone?

when the zombies come, we'll have too many gun laws to protect ourselves !

[LaEnana]

I think Americans could probably benefit from having some of their rights taken away.



Fuck you. "Patriot" Act is bad enough. Founding fathers are surely spinning in their graves from that one.

[Talorth]

Why is it that when anyone says proper gun laws people immediately conclude that means the complete banishment of them.

No, its just so that insane people shouldn't be allowed to own them, or at least have a much harder time getting them. We are taking about a weapon that can kill people here.

[damme]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6563565.stm

He's not even American (he has dual citizenship, but hes Korean), legally he cannot buy a gun. Yet, he still got one and shot 30 people. Obviously a law against guns would not have helped this situation.

He could just have gone to a local alcoholic and have him buy it for a few bucks. With some kind of restrictions at least that way to get a gun would be taken away.

[Zebedee]

Can't you just ban American IP's from the site Wig?

I makes me angry to see so many ignorant people lauding their rights over the corpses of their countrymen. The only one of them that I have seen make a pertinent or sensible point in this whole discussion (I haven't read blah yet today but don't hold out much hope for the intellectual plankton on there) did so in a font that made my eyes bleed.

There is obviously no point in discussing this with any of them. Religion and patriotism are the two most despicable forms of social control on the planet and America is a fucked up fundamentalist state when it comes to both of them.

The permamnently pathetic twat that is Will starts quoting a BBC article on handgun crime in the UK in 2001 to justify the right to bear arms. Figures that include toy and replica handguns being used in crimes. When guns are not freely available people improvise, fortunately often with non-deadly alternatives. The figures that people need to look at are the amount of people that actually get shot. It's fucking hard to find accurate figures for America as the NRA ensures that all figures are quoted as "people per 100,000 of populace" instead of just the number of shot people. Even if you look at the total homicide figures, the UK national total of around 700 is equable to that of New York or Chicago or LA on their own, and don't give me that shit about population density cos London is just as big an ethnic over-populated shit hole as any US city.

Last year there were 174 firearm deaths in the UK, coincidentally that's the same amount AS CHILDREN THAT WERE KILLED BY ACCIDENTAL FIREARM DISCHARGE in the US in 2000. I used bold to highlight the discrepancy between actual firearms murders and accidentally killed minors. But yeah gun laws are fucking awesome. Can anyone hear those duelling banjoes? I mean the 2000 figure was the latest I could find but the UK rate was especially high last year compared to around 80 or 90 normally. Can the pro gun monkeys explain how the normal accidental firearm discharge death rate of children in a country with the right to bear arms would not be lowered by the removal of the right to bear arms? Once more to make sure you understand, AS MANY AMERICAN CHILDREN DIE EACH YEAR FROM GUNS THAT ACCIDENTALLY GO OFF, AS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PEOPLE KILLED WITH GUNS IN THE UK.

The whole US populace seems to have swallowed the propaganda from the NRA and weapons manufacturers and their puppet politicians. As we saw in a previous discussion about the Federal Bank where Will kept banging on about the Constitution, this is a document that has been amended so many times, it's not set in stone. What happened to the 18th Amendment or the right of returning your run away slaves from neighbouring states? There are too many people making too much money from the right to bear arms and the population is too ignorant and compliant to want to change it even while they are killed for the sake of it.

[Archaos]

Zeb wins.
I surrender.

[Zebedee]

I won blah.

If you don't normally read my posts I hope you've read this one long enough to see PLEASE READ THIS!!!!!!

I know the standard of discussion is normally really low on this forum, due to a combination of the age and low intelligence of the average poster. I don't normally lie or make up shit to justify my arguments. However the issue of a heavily armed populace seems so abhorrent to a Western European and there was so much ignorance being displayed by the American posters I thought I'd try something.

Yesterday I made up the fact that 30,000 people are murdered with firearms in the US each year. I used the total amount of people shot as the total that died. I thought I wouldn't get to mention it for more than a couple of posts before someone "shot me down", they didn't. I kept mentioning it in every post but nobody argued.

If you're not quite following what I'm saying here, what I did yesterday was prove how callous and ignorant you people are. You don't give a flying fucking shit how many people have to die to keep the NRA rich and your kids in danger. You saw the figure of 30,000 but still defended your gun ownership, I could have put 100,000 or a million and it would have made no difference. None of you even know how many of your fellow citizens are shot down each year, and you don't fucking care. America bangs on and on about FREEDOM, but you forgot all about brotherhood and equality. You're all members of a pitiful, shallow, heinous society and I pity you. You make me feel sick.

I'm sure some of you must have the ability for sentient thought somewhere under all that lard, try using it :s

[LinnEva]

no it wont end b/c the government knows better then to try and force its citezens to turn in thier legal, registered guns.

i didnt say it would be because the government was gonna take the guns.
plenty of other ways to die by a gun.

[damme]

In Virginia you can own a weapon meant for killing as a minor, as long as you got it from your parents but god forbid you drink before you're 21, that could actually be dangerous.

[Zebedee]

In Virginia you can own a weapon meant for killing as a minor, as long as you got it from your parents but god forbid you drink before you're 21, that could actually be dangerous.

Don't be silly Damme, if minors could drink alcohol they wouldn't be able to shoot straight.

It all makes perfect sense, really it does.

[CharlieM]

Not a day gos by now, when I consider all that is possible for good to come of the US, that I fall into an appoplectic state at the sheer ignorance and stupidity of the masses.

Its like watching lemmings throw themselves off an e-2-d cliff on my old 486, so sad, and yet so fucking entertaining.

[Damascus]

hahahha lemmings, good game.

I don't think I need to add any more to any of this, Zeb has come out as a one man army over his last few posts.

Besides, I'm bad at arguing like this cause I never look facts up.

[Zebedee]

hahahha lemmings, good game.

I don't think I need to add any more to any of this, Zeb has come out as a one man army over his last few posts.

Besides, I'm bad at arguing like this cause I never look facts up.

Just make the facts up and rely on the fact that nobody knows what they're talking about anyway. Americans seem to rely on facts that their grandfather told them were in the Bible anyway.

[YuriSakazaki]

I hadn't even checked this site for a thread. I'm damn sure not arguing in two places :|

[Grog]

screw even argueing in one!

[Damarus]

It DOES make it/you safer when some fucking pathetic loser decides to start shooting anyone and everyone he comes across.

I don't buy the whole safety argument because anyone who carries a gun better know and observe basic firearm safety. If they don't, just like with a car or anything else dangerous, they lose their license to carry/use it.Too many pages to read any further, so If my reply becomes stupid or something because of something else someone said, my bad.

IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU SAFER. HE BOUGHT THE GUNS FROM A FUCKING STORE. All he needed was a fucking green card, and the store owner said he looked like a good enough kid so he got the gun. He had fucking history as a troubled kid too... Doesn't matter if it was easy to find information, why should it be easy - We are talking about weapons designed to kill here.

YES! WE WILL ALL BE SAFER IF WE ALL CARRY AROUND THE ABILITY TO KILL EACH OTHER. You're pretty much making suicide bombers sound sane there... I can't stand this point of view, doesn't matter who has it. Look at any other country with strict gun laws. In Australia I can think of only ONE peace time gun rampage. You have them YEARLY almost.... More people die to guns in America yearly than people who die in Australia to natural causes (fake statistic but i feel like being stupid too)...

[LaEnana]

Gun "accidents" are all from not checking if a gun is loaded or not. Education, as is always the case, is the best prevention for these "accidents". Most of my friends are all gun owner as myself, and we follow the basic gun safety practices to ensure that myself and others do not get hurt. From a young age I was taught by my father to have respect for and how to handle a firearm.


Should we lose the constitutional right to keep and bear arms just because of a small amount of dummies and criminals? I don't think so. Regardless of whatever perfect society you think you come from, guns are part of our culture and the law of the land. In a country like Isreal where everyone is trained and owns firearms I would imagine that gun accidents and citizen on citizen violence is very low. If only people that owned guns all took the proper training on not only how to handle a gun safely but to actually have range time and put the bullets on target there would be much less incidence of accidents.

The right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed to our citizens by the constitution. The founding fathers' idea was that if the government could not be changed by legislation and became a tyranny it could be over thrown and replaced by a democratic administration. Checks and balances, the fundemental of our government.

Granted that at the time of the war of independence vs Britain people had to have firearms because it was a frontier enviroment. Still it was the armed citizenry not subjects that fought against the crown and won independence. How likely is it that this will happen? Low but there is still the chance.

If not for firearms, the LA riots back in the 90's would have been much worse had it not been for guns in the hands of stupid Americans, more people would have died more homes burned more businesses ruined. I have spoken on many and occasion to different police officers and firemen about this exact incident and alot of firemen were able to do their jobs at controlling the fires because neighborhoods mobilized and held off the assholes that were fucking it up for everyone else. Many shop owners kept their businesses safe by taking turns with family members keeping watch on the store. I know one friend that would probably have been pulled out of his delivery truck going through LA for his job if he hadn't pushed his .45 into a guys face that tried to stop him at an intersection. A different friend helped his neighbor move his family and valuables out of LA also were saved because they were armed, the looters and bad guys during that time saw they were armed and left them alone, moved on to more defenseless targets. With your idea of government you would have relied on the authorities for your safety, no thanks.




Interesting article from :


Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
Hartford, WI 53027 Phone (262) 673-9745
Fax (262) 673-9746
Statistics and "Gun Control"*

Compiled by Richard W. Stevens
The Bill of Rights Sentinel (formerly The Firearms Sentinel) aims to give its readers intellectual ammunition to fight the battle against "gun control." Part of the "gun control" war is fought with statistics. The gun prohibitionists frequently cite statistics in the media. It is often hard to question the figures without having the facts.
The now-famous 1995 Tennessee Law Review article entitled "Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda?", written by Don B. Kates, Henry E. Schaffer, John K. Lattimer, George B. Murray, and Edwin H. Cassem, powerfully discredits the myth that "gun violence" is an epidemic that only "gun control" can cure. This 1995 article shows how much of the statistical evidence the gun prohibitionists use is skewed, falsified, or massaged. When all of the statistics are accounted, however, they tend to show that the public health argument is a sham.
The Bill of Rights Sentinel is pleased to provide some of the important logical points and counter statistics for gun rights advocates to use. This important information follows in the handy table format below. The information comes from the 1995 article by Kates, et. al.
Gun Prohibitionists' Argument The Data Required To Support Their Argument What The Data Actually Show Widespread firearm ownership has for decades been a major factor in crime. Many scholarly articles and studies in the literature. No studies in the 1960's; Research started in the 1970's.1 Criminologists agree that firearm ownership presents a high risk of violence, and that gun control laws work. Many scholarly studies by criminologists supporting "gun control;" few opposing "gun control." Large number of scholarly studies by criminologist showing firearms ownership does not increase risks of violence, and that "gun control" does not work.2 The Second Amendment does not guarantee a personal right to own firearms. Largely unanimous opinion of legal scholars and judges, reflected in published articles and opinions. Over thirty law review articles and several books argue that "gun control" laws are not constitutional.3 The Supreme Court has held that the Second Amendment guarantees a right to the States, not to individual citizens. Several Supreme Court cases affirming this position, followed by lower court decisions. Several Supreme Court decisions note that the term "the people" mentioned in the Second Amendment refers only to individual citizens; no Supreme Court decision to the contrary.4 It is safer to submit to a felonious attack than to resist with a firearm. Statistics showing that persons who submit are injured less often than those who resist with a firearm. Study data show that a victim with a firearm is 50% less likely to be injured than one who submits.5 It is safer to use weapons other than firearms for self-protection from felonious attack. Statistics showing a lower injury rate for victims who used weapons other than firearms for defense. Study data show that victims who use firearms for self-defense are 67% less likely to be injured than those using other kinds of weapons.6 Screaming and running away are safer than using a firearm to resist a rapist. Statistics showing a lower injury rate for victims who screamed and ran away. Study data shows that screaming and running away is far more dangerous to the victim than using a firearm to resist a rapist.7 Scientists have discredited all studies purporting to show the effectiveness of using firearms for self-defense. Many scholarly articles debunking such studies; the authors receiving no professional recognition for such studies. Gary Kleck's book Point Blank received the American Society of Criminology's highest award in 1993 as the single most important contribution to criminology in several years; even "gun control" advocates praised it; only a few articles criticized the book's studies and conclusions.8 All the "pro-gun" literature comes from firearm manufacturers, the NRA, and "gun nuts." No articles, favorable to the civil right to be armed, authored by anyone outside of the "gun lobby." Gary Kleck is not a firearm owner, and is a political liberal and ACLU member; other scholars who have published study results not favorable to "gun control" are likewise political liberals and non- firearm owners.9 Other countries' severe limits on firearms ownership have reduced murder, suicide, and crime rates. Statistical data showing definite and uniform correlation between restrictive "gun control" laws and lower murder, suicide, and crime rates. Studies by David Kopel and others of foreign "gun control" laws show no consistent correlation between "gun control" laws or gun ownership rates, and the rates of murder, suicide, and crime.10 Other countries' experience shows that more restrictions on firearms ownership decreased homicides and suicides in those countries; the more available firearms are, the higher a country's incidence of violence. Statistical data showing that homicide and suicide rates in Europe dropped when very restrictive "gun control" laws took effect. The incidence of violence in European countries was low long before restrictive "gun control" laws were enacted. European suicide rates are much higher than U.S. suicide rates. If homicide and suicide rates are combined, the U.S. is still below the median of 18 major nations.11
Israel has a policy of encouraging widespread firearm possession also has the lowest homicide + rate.12 Very restrictive licensing requirements in Switzerland result in very low incidence of "handgun deaths." Statistics showing that: the Swiss cannot easily get handguns and thus own few handguns; handguns are not generally available to the Swiss. Swiss law requires licensing of all handguns. Swiss government routinely lends handguns to millions of civilians, however. Swiss law allows widespread carrying of handguns. Handguns are widely available.13 Restrictive handgun licensing laws in Israel result in very low incidence of "handgun deaths." Statistics showing that: Israelis cannot easily get handguns and thus own few handguns; handguns are not generally available to Israelis. Israeli government routinely lends handguns from its armories to civilians; Israeli law promotes the carrying of concealed handguns to maximize the likelihood that citizens in public places will be armed.14 Fully-automatic weapons are so dangerous that enlightened governments entirely ban private possession of them. Statistics showing that no "civilized" nation permits its citizens to possess fully-automatic weapons. Any law-abiding, responsible, and trained Israelis may draw a sub- machine gun out of a government armory.15 When nations enact restrictive "gun control" laws, homicide rates fall to low levels. Statistics showing that in most nations, the stronger are the "gun control" laws, the lower is the homicide rate. Taiwan's murder rate is higher than the U.S. rate -- although possession of a firearm in Taiwan is a capital offense. South Africa has very restrictive "gun control" laws, yet its homicide rate is double the U.S. rate.16 The greater the availability of handguns, the higher will be the rates of fatal "gun accidents." Statistics showing that as the number of handguns increased in the U.S., the higher was the rate of fatal "gun accidents." From 1967 to 1986, the number of handguns owned in the U.S. increased by 173%; the per capita rate of fatal "gun accidents" in this period fell by two-thirds, and the total number of such accidents decreased by 50%, in spite of increased population over the same period.17 The greater the availability of handguns, the higher will be the homicide rates. Statistics showing that as the number of handguns increased in the U.S., the homicide rates also consistently increased. From 1973 to 1992, the number of handguns owned increased by 110%; the per capita rate of homicide was unpatterned and varied erratically over the same period, and was 9.5% lower in 1992. Fewer homicides were committed with firearms in 1988 than in 1973.18 Handguns account for only 20% of the firearms in use today, but are involved in 90% of criminal and unintentional firearm injuries. Published statistics supporting these assertions. These assertions are false and fraudulently reported. There are no data to support them.19 Most murderers were law-abiding citizens before they pulled the trigger. Published statistics supporting these assertions. Studies show that 75% of murderers have adult criminal records before the murder; half of the remaining 25% are juveniles with no "adult" record; murderers tend to be rather extreme aberrants with histories of violence, crime, and substance abuse.20 Most shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill persons, but are acts of passion involving use of a handgun owned for home protection. Published statistics supporting these assertions. (Same as above).

[Zebedee]

Gun "accidents" are all from not checking if a gun is loaded or not. Education, as is always the case, is the best prevention for these "accidents". Most of my friends are all gun owner as myself, and we follow the basic gun safety practices to ensure that myself and others do not get hurt. From a young age I was taught by my father to have respect for and how to handle a firearm.


Should we lose the constitutional right to keep and bear arms just because of a small amount of dummies and criminals? I don't think so. Regardless of whatever perfect society you think you come from, guns are part of our culture and the law of the land. In a country like Isreal where everyone is trained and owns firearms I would imagine that gun accidents and citizen on citizen violence is very low. If only people that owned guns all took the proper training on not only how to handle a gun safely but to actually have range time and put the bullets on target there would be much less incidence of accidents.

The right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed to our citizens by the constitution. The founding fathers' idea was that if the government could not be changed by legislation and became a tyranny it could be over thrown and replaced by a democratic administration. Checks and balances, the fundemental of our government.

Granted that at the time of the war of independence vs Britain people had to have firearms because it was a frontier enviroment. Still it was the armed citizenry not subjects that fought against the crown and won independence. How likely is it that this will happen? Low but there is still the chance.

If not for firearms, the LA riots back in the 90's would have been much worse had it not been for guns in the hands of stupid Americans, more people would have died more homes burned more businesses ruined. I have spoken on many and occasion to different police officers and firemen about this exact incident and alot of firemen were able to do their jobs at controlling the fires because neighborhoods mobilized and held off the assholes that were fucking it up for everyone else. Many shop owners kept their businesses safe by taking turns with family members keeping watch on the store. I know one friend that would probably have been pulled out of his delivery truck going through LA for his job if he hadn't pushed his .45 into a guys face that tried to stop him at an intersection. A different friend helped his neighbor move his family and valuables out of LA also were saved because they were armed, the looters and bad guys during that time saw they were armed and left them alone, moved on to more defenseless targets. With your idea of government you would have relied on the authorities for your safety, no thanks.




Interesting article from :


Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
Hartford, WI 53027Phone (262) 673-9745
Fax (262) 673-9746
Statistics and "Gun Control"*

Compiled by Richard W. Stevens
The Bill of Rights Sentinel (formerly The Firearms Sentinel) aims to give its readers intellectual ammunition to fight the battle against "gun control." Part of the "gun control" war is fought with statistics. The gun prohibitionists frequently cite statistics in the media. It is often hard to question the figures without having the facts.
The now-famous 1995 Tennessee Law Review article entitled "Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda?", written by Don B. Kates, Henry E. Schaffer, John K. Lattimer, George B. Murray, and Edwin H. Cassem, powerfully discredits the myth that "gun violence" is an epidemic that only "gun control" can cure. This 1995 article shows how much of the statistical evidence the gun prohibitionists use is skewed, falsified, or massaged. When all of the statistics are accounted, however, they tend to show that the public health argument is a sham.
The Bill of Rights Sentinel is pleased to provide some of the important logical points and counter statistics for gun rights advocates to use. This important information follows in the handy table format below. The information comes from the 1995 article by Kates, et. al.
Gun Prohibitionists' Argument The Data Required To Support Their Argument What The Data Actually Show Widespread firearm ownership has for decades been a major factor in crime. Many scholarly articles and studies in the literature. No studies in the 1960's; Research started in the 1970's.1 Criminologists agree that firearm ownership presents a high risk of violence, and that gun control laws work. Many scholarly studies by criminologists supporting "gun control;" few opposing "gun control." Large number of scholarly studies by criminologist showing firearms ownership does not increase risks of violence, and that "gun control" does not work.2 The Second Amendment does not guarantee a personal right to own firearms. Largely unanimous opinion of legal scholars and judges, reflected in published articles and opinions. Over thirty law review articles and several books argue that "gun control" laws are not constitutional.3 The Supreme Court has held that the Second Amendment guarantees a right to the States, not to individual citizens. Several Supreme Court cases affirming this position, followed by lower court decisions. Several Supreme Court decisions note that the term "the people" mentioned in the Second Amendment refers only to individual citizens; no Supreme Court decision to the contrary.4 It is safer to submit to a felonious attack than to resist with a firearm. Statistics showing that persons who submit are injured less often than those who resist with a firearm. Study data show that a victim with a firearm is 50% less likely to be injured than one who submits.5 It is safer to use weapons other than firearms for self-protection from felonious attack. Statistics showing a lower injury rate for victims who used weapons other than firearms for defense. Study data show that victims who use firearms for self-defense are 67% less likely to be injured than those using other kinds of weapons.6 Screaming and running away are safer than using a firearm to resist a rapist. Statistics showing a lower injury rate for victims who screamed and ran away. Study data shows that screaming and running away is far more dangerous to the victim than using a firearm to resist a rapist.7 Scientists have discredited all studies purporting to show the effectiveness of using firearms for self-defense. Many scholarly articles debunking such studies; the authors receiving no professional recognition for such studies. Gary Kleck's book Point Blank received the American Society of Criminology's highest award in 1993 as the single most important contribution to criminology in several years; even "gun control" advocates praised it; only a few articles criticized the book's studies and conclusions.8 All the "pro-gun" literature comes from firearm manufacturers, the NRA, and "gun nuts." No articles, favorable to the civil right to be armed, authored by anyone outside of the "gun lobby." Gary Kleck is not a firearm owner, and is a political liberal and ACLU member; other scholars who have published study results not favorable to "gun control" are likewise political liberals and non- firearm owners.9 Other countries' severe limits on firearms ownership have reduced murder, suicide, and crime rates. Statistical data showing definite and uniform correlation between restrictive "gun control" laws and lower murder, suicide, and crime rates. Studies by David Kopel and others of foreign "gun control" laws show no consistent correlation between "gun control" laws or gun ownership rates, and the rates of murder, suicide, and crime.10 Other countries' experience shows that more restrictions on firearms ownership decreased homicides and suicides in those countries; the more available firearms are, the higher a country's incidence of violence. Statistical data showing that homicide and suicide rates in Europe dropped when very restrictive "gun control" laws took effect. The incidence of violence in European countries was low long before restrictive "gun control" laws were enacted. European suicide rates are much higher than U.S. suicide rates. If homicide and suicide rates are combined, the U.S. is still below the median of 18 major nations.11
Israel has a policy of encouraging widespread firearm possession also has the lowest homicide + rate.12 Very restrictive licensing requirements in Switzerland result in very low incidence of "handgun deaths." Statistics showing that: the Swiss cannot easily get handguns and thus own few handguns; handguns are not generally available to the Swiss. Swiss law requires licensing of all handguns. Swiss government routinely lends handguns to millions of civilians, however. Swiss law allows widespread carrying of handguns. Handguns are widely available.13 Restrictive handgun licensing laws in Israel result in very low incidence of "handgun deaths." Statistics showing that: Israelis cannot easily get handguns and thus own few handguns; handguns are not generally available to Israelis. Israeli government routinely lends handguns from its armories to civilians; Israeli law promotes the carrying of concealed handguns to maximize the likelihood that citizens in public places will be armed.14 Fully-automatic weapons are so dangerous that enlightened governments entirely ban private possession of them. Statistics showing that no "civilized" nation permits its citizens to possess fully-automatic weapons. Any law-abiding, responsible, and trained Israelis may draw a sub- machine gun out of a government armory.15 When nations enact restrictive "gun control" laws, homicide rates fall to low levels. Statistics showing that in most nations, the stronger are the "gun control" laws, the lower is the homicide rate. Taiwan's murder rate is higher than the U.S. rate -- although possession of a firearm in Taiwan is a capital offense. South Africa has very restrictive "gun control" laws, yet its homicide rate is double the U.S. rate.16 The greater the availability of handguns, the higher will be the rates of fatal "gun accidents." Statistics showing that as the number of handguns increased in the U.S., the higher was the rate of fatal "gun accidents." From 1967 to 1986, the number of handguns owned in the U.S. increased by 173%; the per capita rate of fatal "gun accidents" in this period fell by two-thirds, and the total number of such accidents decreased by 50%, in spite of increased population over the same period.17 The greater the availability of handguns, the higher will be the homicide rates. Statistics showing that as the number of handguns increased in the U.S., the homicide rates also consistently increased. From 1973 to 1992, the number of handguns owned increased by 110%; the per capita rate of homicide was unpatterned and varied erratically over the same period, and was 9.5% lower in 1992. Fewer homicides were committed with firearms in 1988 than in 1973.18 Handguns account for only 20% of the firearms in use today, but are involved in 90% of criminal and unintentional firearm injuries. Published statistics supporting these assertions. These assertions are false and fraudulently reported. There are no data to support them.19 Most murderers were law-abiding citizens before they pulled the trigger. Published statistics supporting these assertions. Studies show that 75% of murderers have adult criminal records before the murder; half of the remaining 25% are juveniles with no "adult" record; murderers tend to be rather extreme aberrants with histories of violence, crime, and substance abuse.20 Most shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill persons, but are acts of passion involving use of a handgun owned for home protection. Published statistics supporting these assertions. (Same as above).

Erick you quoted an article that suggests that if you add European suicide rates and murder rates together they come close to US murder rates and that makes owning guns ok. Did you even read this shit?

[Grindrolas]

Yet again, Zeb comes in and says everything I'm feeling... lol

[Talorth]

I think i'll defend my right to be a suicide bomber.

[Zebedee]

I just lost a really long post :s

[Zebedee]

Was going to point out that I'm not making all these posts to wind people up like I normally do. I really do find it profoundly shocking that every American viewpoint sounds like they've spent 5 years at the David Koresh School of Cult Brain Washing. I honestly would never have expected anyone to suggest that had all the students been armed the killer wouldn't have got away with it, to see that apparently every American that posted agrees with that is so fucking scarey :s

[Archaos]

We love our violence in America.

[Zebedee]

We love our violence in America.

Well apparently not. Everybody seems to be so scared of violence that they have to carry guns to feel safe...

[Archaos]

Everyone, as in the 7 people on this forum from America. lol

[Talorth]

Was going to point out that I'm not making all these posts to wind people up like I normally do. I really do find it profoundly shocking that every American viewpoint sounds like they've spent 5 years at the David Koresh School of Cult Brain Washing. I honestly would never have expected anyone to suggest that had all the students been armed the killer wouldn't have got away with it, to see that apparently every American that posted agrees with that is so fucking scarey :s

It is scary, although I don't think the majority of people in the United States actually feel that way.

What scares me more is the offhand attitude; that somehow it isn't an important issue. The boisterous pig known as George W. Bush only goes so far as to say we should pray for those who have lost loved ones. Well, thats great but instead of recognizing an issue he completely ignores it, possibly because of the fact that he is backed heavily by the IRA and doesn't want to be incidentally named a pussy.

I urge United States citizens to actually look at the big picture, or the issue at hand. Something at the very least needs to change.

[Zebedee]

Everyone, as in the 7 people on this forum from America. lol

You haven't seen blah? The closest any of the Euros got to a debate on the issue was being called a pussy.

[Archaos]

oh. I don't check blah, i make a habit not to.

you can hardly call the blah community all of America though. Full of catalyst !

[Talorth]

Full of idiocy more or less...

[Cilus]

Can't read every page and make a long post because of class but...don't take the average American as people who read blah. Those are the special people that are spawns of brother on sister love.

I see both points on how it would suck to be defenseless in case someone did try to harm you/loved ones with a gun. But also I see that it wouldn't be as big of an issue if guns were so easily obtained. I think it's a debate that's going to become as controversial as abortion, and the only thing I could question about it was the campus security.

At least on the campus I live on we have local police sometimes coming through here, but we also have lots of campus police almost everywhere. Some have patrol cars and some ride on bikes/Segways but all of them have pistols. Maybe it happened too fast and people couldn't hear it, but that's the only thing that came to my mind on preventing it before it became 30+ deaths.

[LaEnana]

Erick you quoted an article that suggests that if you add European suicide rates and murder rates together they come close to US murder rates and that makes owning guns ok. Did you even read this shit?


Sure! If there are murderers around would you prefer to be unarmed at home or anywhere else? I'd rather have a gun and not ever use it than need it and not have.

[damme]

The only way I could see it going if everyone had a gun is more dead.

The gun control isn't the only thing that is wrong with the states though, just the fact that you need campus police and local police around your colleges is pretty fucked up. I've never seen a single policeman, security guard or anything on my campus and thats how it is all over the country. Guess what, no one has gotten robbed/killed/assaulted.

[gen3tic]

So Zebedee, how is it that just because that article is from 2001 that it's irrelevant? When the gun laws in the UK were enacted, gun crime went up in the following years. I don't see why the fact that it is from 2001 matters. Would it be better if someone published the same statistics for the same years in an article dated today? The simple fact, no matter when published, is that after the gun laws were enacted in the UK, gun crime went up.

[Emillia]

Should we lose the constitutional right to keep and bear arms just because of a small amount of dummies and criminals? I don't think so. Regardless of whatever perfect society you think you come from, guns are part of our culture and the law of the land.

:roll:
The Constitution was finished in 1787.. The US population was at that time BARELY 10 million. Half the country wasn't even settled yet. The law of the land was MUCH different than it is now.

As of July 2006 The United States population was 298,444,215.

The Second amendment reads as this:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I believe as of today, it is safe to say that we have no militia, and the general public is not "well regulated" Which in my AMERICAN opinion makes this amendment Null and Void.

The Constitution is to outdated to apply to modern day time. It is the OLDEST document of it kinda that is still in effect! Times have changed! IT IS NOT WORKING.... I was raised with guns. I have shot guns. I have gone hunting. I have been a victim of violent crime with a Hand Gun.

I am not for a total ban on all guns. The ONLY guns that should be available to the public are the ones created for the sole reason of hunting. Hand guns where created to be used on other humans. Not for hunting. People use the argument the need them for protection. Its because you fear another Human using a gun on you. Take that fear away by taking the fucking guns away.

In August of 2006 the National Geographic did a study and came up the the odd of many different ways to die. Death by fire arm was #7 at 1 in 314.

http://www.rileyhospital.org/document.jsp?locid=1439

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany and 9,390 in the United States. FBI Uniform Crime Report, 1996

In 1995, 3.280 children and teenagers were murdred with guns, 1,450 commited suicide with guns, and 440 died in unintentional shootings. Firearms killed a total of 5,285 of our young people. National Center for Health Statistics. 1997

In 1994, about 70% of the murder victims ages 15-17 years old were killed with a handgun. Bureau of Justicre Statistics, 1996

Two in 25 high school students (7.9%) reported having carried a gun in the last 30 days. Centers for Disease Control, 1995

Gunshot wounds are the second leading cause of death for all people aged 10-34. National Center for Health Statistics, 1993

For every child killed by a gun, four are wounded. Annest, Journal of the American Medical Association, 1995

"The firearm injury epidemic, due largely to handgun injuries, is ten times larger than the polio epidemic of the first half of this century

In 1997, 32,436 Americans were killed with firearms-in homicides, suicides and accidents. In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 58,148 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War. National Center for Health Statistics, 1997


These statistics might be 10 yrs old, but I can guarantee you that the numbers would only be WORSE if they where current. Things have NOT gotten better in the last 10 years. America has a problem, and we keep hiding behind a piece of paper written over 200 years ago to justify our lack of action to right this issue. I more than believe it is time for our "right to bear arms" be taken away. As children, if we did not act responsibly , our parents took our privileges away until we showed we where capable of handling them again. Why should this be any different?

[damme]

Now this is just sad http://www.break.com/index/baby_shoots_his_first_gun.html

[LaEnana]

damme if most of the student were armed I very much doubt he would have gotten very far. There have been cases of someone coming to cause mass death and a private citizen came out with his weapon and stopped futher death. I'll have to look it up.


Emillia why don't you post the statistics on how many people die from automobile accidents and cigarette related death and heart disease. If you did and used the same logic then all cars, alcohol and cigarettes, junk food would all be banned FAR more people die from the above than from guns.

Like I said before, the founding fathers had in mind that if people were not happy with their government they would have the option to change it by legislation or by force of arms. With this being said, I wish the small arms available to military were also available to civilians freely, of course with background check etc.

Anyways if the document that is the Constitution was written so long ago and needs to be revised how about the reversal of women's sufferage? How about reinstating prohibition? Freedom of press, speech? Shit with all the illegal immigrants taking away jobs why don't we bring back slavery to bring the economy around?

[Will]

I think you guys are missing the fundamental point. We don't carry guns because we are scared, we carry them because we are prepared. It is better to have a gun and not need it then need a gun and not have it.

We consider it a fundamental right to be able to protect ourselves but we don't live in a state of constant paranoia (at least I don't). I will never support giving up any fundamental rights in exchange for the illusion of safety. The government will never be able to protect you from some random idiot who decides to kill en-masse. They will show up after you are dead and clean up the pieces but by then, it's too late.

It is NEVER a good idea to give up rights for the simple reason that once given up, they rarely come back. Again, criminals buy guns all the time. If you are a felon, it is illegal for you to own a firearm in the United States; yet, somehow, they manage to stay armed. Truth be told, the gun in question which killed those kids was in a sense illegal because there is a firearm ban on campus at VaTech. It wasn't like this kid legally brought the gun on campus. My point here is that regulations to keep guns out of certain places aren't perfect.

The only ones restricted by gun control are those that would follow the rules. The rule breakers are going to be armed regardless of how hard you make it for people to purchase weapons legally. Since the government is incapable of protecting me and my family at all times and in all places and situations, I will have to do it myself. This isn't about barbarism or violence, this is about the inalienable right to protect yourself against the threat of violence.

[Grindrolas]

Nice post Emillia

damme if most of the student were armed I very much doubt he would have gotten very far. There have been cases of someone coming to cause mass death and a private citizen came out with his weapon and stopped futher death. I'll have to look it up.


Emillia why don't you post the statistics on how many people die from automobile accidents and cigarette related death and heart disease. If you did and used the same logic then all cars, alcohol and cigarettes, junk food would all be banned FAR more people die from the above than from guns.

Like I said before, the founding fathers had in mind that if people were not happy with their government they would have the option to change it by legislation or by force of arms. With this being said, I wish the small arms available to military were also available to civilians freely, of course with background check etc.

Anyways if the document that is the Constitution was written so long ago and needs to be revised how about the reversal of women's sufferage? How about reinstating prohibition? Freedom of press, speech? Shit with all the illegal immigrants taking away jobs why don't we bring back slavery to bring the economy around?
Wow, thats one hell of an ignorant statement...Our need for guns is irrelevant now, so obviously so is womens rights, and freedom of speech.

I'd just like to take the time to thank all of the Americans in this post. You've convinced me that despite California probably being a better place for me to open up my studio, I'd rather be surrounded by people that can't walk into a Walmart and buy a gun, as opposed to a bunch of people who carry them out of fear.

You've gotta wonder, if this kid didn't obtain his guns so easily, would his anger have turned into violence?

[Will]

Can't you just ban American IP's from the site Wig?

I makes me angry to see so many ignorant people lauding their rights over the corpses of their countrymen.

Where do you think our rights came from? They came from the corpses of our countrymen. Ban American IP's...LOL what a pathetic loser you are to suggest that opinions other then those from your country are acceptable here. Fucking tool.


There is obviously no point in discussing this with any of them. Religion and patriotism are the two most despicable forms of social control on the planet and America is a fucked up fundamentalist state when it comes to both of them.

But you promote gun control, a method of population control that all of the most despicable world leaders throughout history believed in. You are in fine company here sphincter boy.

The permamnently pathetic twat that is Will starts quoting a BBC article on handgun crime in the UK in 2001 to justify the right to bear arms. Figures that include toy and replica handguns being used in crimes. When guns are not freely available people improvise, fortunately often with non-deadly alternatives. The figures that people need to look at are the amount of people that actually get shot. It's fucking hard to find accurate figures for America as the NRA ensures that all figures are quoted as "people per 100,000 of populace" instead of just the number of shot people. Even if you look at the total homicide figures, the UK national total of around 700 is equable to that of New York or Chicago or LA on their own, and don't give me that shit about population density cos London is just as big an ethnic over-populated shit hole as any US city.

Did you check out Genetics stats or did you just brush them aside because they don't fit your argument?

Last year there were 174 firearm deaths in the UK, coincidentally that's the same amount AS CHILDREN THAT WERE KILLED BY ACCIDENTAL FIREARM DISCHARGE in the US in 2000. I used bold to highlight the discrepancy between actual firearms murders and accidentally killed minors. But yeah gun laws are fucking awesome. Can anyone hear those duelling banjoes? I mean the 2000 figure was the latest I could find but the UK rate was especially high last year compared to around 80 or 90 normally. Can the pro gun monkeys explain how the normal accidental firearm discharge death rate of children in a country with the right to bear arms would not be lowered by the removal of the right to bear arms? Once more to make sure you understand, AS MANY AMERICAN CHILDREN DIE EACH YEAR FROM GUNS THAT ACCIDENTALLY GO OFF, AS THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF PEOPLE KILLED WITH GUNS IN THE UK.

So, to save 174 deaths a year, you would outlaw weapons from the millions of other people who (a) know how to use them (b) don't murder people (c) teach their children how to properly handle the weapons. Knee jerk much? You would make a horrible world leader. Well, you are a horrible person (I use the term loosely) so I guess it fits.

The whole US populace seems to have swallowed the propaganda from the NRA and weapons manufacturers and their puppet politicians. As we saw in a previous discussion about the Federal Bank where Will kept banging on about the Constitution, this is a document that has been amended so many times, it's not set in stone. What happened to the 18th Amendment or the right of returning your run away slaves from neighbouring states? There are too many people making too much money from the right to bear arms and the population is too ignorant and compliant to want to change it even while they are killed for the sake of it.

If the American people want to amend the constitution them I'm all for it. The founding fathers built into the constitution the ability to amend it as needed (that is the documents perfection). I personally don't care about the NRA lobby (at least they have our rights in mind). I'm more concerned with AIPAC.

Anyone who wants to give the government cart blanche in their lives is a sheep, plain and simple. Maybe you come from a place where the police state way of thinking is so ingrained that you couldn't fathom the need for any personal rights. Keep your shit on your side of the pond you pathetic fucking tool.

[Talorth]

:roll:
The Constitution was finished in 1787.. The US population was at that time BARELY 10 million. Half the country wasn't even settled yet. The law of the land was MUCH different than it is now.

As of July 2006 The United States population was 298,444,215.

The Second amendment reads as this:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I believe as of today, it is safe to say that we have no militia, and the general public is not "well regulated" Which in my AMERICAN opinion makes this amendment Null and Void.

The Constitution is to outdated to apply to modern day time. It is the OLDEST document of it kinda that is still in effect! Times have changed! IT IS NOT WORKING.... I was raised with guns. I have shot guns. I have gone hunting. I have been a victim of violent crime with a Hand Gun.

I am not for a total ban on all guns. The ONLY guns that should be available to the public are the ones created for the sole reason of hunting. Hand guns where created to be used on other humans. Not for hunting. People use the argument the need them for protection. Its because you fear another Human using a gun on you. Take that fear away by taking the fucking guns away.

In August of 2006 the National Geographic did a study and came up the the odd of many different ways to die. Death by fire arm was #7 at 1 in 314.

http://www.rileyhospital.org/document.jsp?locid=1439

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany and 9,390 in the United States. FBI Uniform Crime Report, 1996

In 1995, 3.280 children and teenagers were murdred with guns, 1,450 commited suicide with guns, and 440 died in unintentional shootings. Firearms killed a total of 5,285 of our young people. National Center for Health Statistics. 1997

In 1994, about 70% of the murder victims ages 15-17 years old were killed with a handgun. Bureau of Justicre Statistics, 1996

Two in 25 high school students (7.9%) reported having carried a gun in the last 30 days. Centers for Disease Control, 1995

Gunshot wounds are the second leading cause of death for all people aged 10-34. National Center for Health Statistics, 1993

For every child killed by a gun, four are wounded. Annest, Journal of the American Medical Association, 1995

"The firearm injury epidemic, due largely to handgun injuries, is ten times larger than the polio epidemic of the first half of this century

In 1997, 32,436 Americans were killed with firearms-in homicides, suicides and accidents. In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 58,148 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War. National Center for Health Statistics, 1997


These statistics might be 10 yrs old, but I can guarantee you that the numbers would only be WORSE if they where current. Things have NOT gotten better in the last 10 years. America has a problem, and we keep hiding behind a piece of paper written over 200 years ago to justify our lack of action to right this issue. I more than believe it is time for our "right to bear arms" be taken away. As children, if we did not act responsibly , our parents took our privileges away until we showed we where capable of handling them again. Why should this be any different?


Thank you Emi for that very concise post, I have to say I agree that there is no place for hand guns in a modern society. I don't live in the states, but it seems to me that law enforcement is nill-to-none.

[Talorth]

We consider it a fundamental right to be able to protect ourselves but we don't live in a state of constant paranoia (at least I don't). I will never support giving up any fundamental rights in exchange for the illusion of safety. The government will never be able to protect you from some random idiot who decides to kill en-masse. They will show up after you are dead and clean up the pieces but by then, it's too late.



How come pepper spray is illegal in most(some actually.)states? Shouldn't that right be protected under the constitution too?

[damme]

And hand grenades and ak 47s.

[Will]

How come pepper spray is illegal in most(some actually.)states? Shouldn't that right be protected under the constitution too?

Well, pepper spray is technically a chemical weapon and they are not constitutionally protected (firearms are).

[Will]

Nice post Emillia


Wow, thats one hell of an ignorant statement...Our need for guns is irrelevant now, so obviously so is womens rights, and freedom of speech.

I'd just like to take the time to thank all of the Americans in this post. You've convinced me that despite California probably being a better place for me to open up my studio, I'd rather be surrounded by people that can't walk into a Walmart and buy a gun, as opposed to a bunch of people who carry them out of fear.

You've gotta wonder, if this kid didn't obtain his guns so easily, would his anger have turned into violence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euwgvoh5SE&eurl=

You neeeeeed to watch this clip because you are about to be among us heathens.

[Cilus]

I'm American, and I don't think I'm stupid. :<

I think something should be done but I'm 18 and can't do a whole lot until I have the chance to vote, and finish college so I can say I have a proper education. Also, this hit home for me too because I just found out that one of my pretty good friends that I went to high school/go to college with, had a cousin that was killed there.

I have conflicting opinions about it because I was raised and live in GA, and many people that I knew had rifles and shotguns in their houses. But everyone I knew that had one actually used it for hunting, and actually used the meat for food. But then there are incidents like this that go the completely other way with guns and throw in other feelings.

I liked Emi's post too. In order for anything to evolve and become better as a whole, it has to learn from its mistakes and make sure they don't happen again. Isn't that why we learn history...so we don't repreat the mistakes of the past?

So if this Colombine(spelling?) happened, and then this happened, and that many people are being killed and hurt by firearms, then isn't it time to change a little of the old ways?

The Constitution has good points in it, but also some points that need some modernizing.

Just my 2 cents :3

[Emillia]

Emillia why don't you post the statistics on how many people die from automobile accidents and cigarette related death and heart disease. If you did and used the same logic then all cars, alcohol and cigarettes, junk food would all be banned FAR more people die from the above than from guns.



I kinda lol'ed at this.. Tell me please.. What would kill you personally first... Me gorging my self on Twinkies till I had a heart attack because I'm an outcast of society and you picked on me, or me pointing a gun at you and pulling the trigger because I'm an outcast of society and you picked on me?

Twinkies weren't created with the intention of killing.. Cars weren't made with the intention of killing.. Why where hand guns made? To hunt with? No. As a means to kill another human, be it by murder or self defense.

1. Heart disease 1 in 6... Is said to be a self created issue due to unhealthy living habits.

2. Cancer 1 in 7... can be argued that its a self created issue due to an unhealthy lifestyle.

3. Stroke 1 in 24... See above...

4. Motor vehicle accident... 1 in 84

5. Suicide. 1 in 119... The odds of this double in a household that owns guns than one that does not.

6. Falling... wtf? 1 in 218

7. Firearm assault 1 in 314. hmmmm

ok so... this proves what exactly? I will die of a brain bleed before I get shot? Brain bleed = issue within my own body.. Cancer is the same.. Heart disease the same.. The fact is, most of these are issues are some what in that individuals personal control. Fire arm assault is not. Which do you see being the more practical thing to take away... Peoples Guns or Peoples Cars...

damme if most of the student were armed I very much doubt he would have gotten very far. There have been cases of someone coming to cause mass death and a private citizen came out with his weapon and stopped futher death. I'll have to look it up.

OK so in a panic filled class room where everyone has a gun, how many innocents that where attempting to be the hero are gonna get shot too? Quick! The room is in chaos! Everyone pull out your guns and start firing! I mean... SOMEONE will eventually shoot him... right?

And furthermore, Who's to say that Joe isn't gonna piss Bill off and Bill's not gonna shoot Joe saying, "well he had a gun too.... I was just defending myself." If everyone had guns then Bill just got away with murder.

[Grindrolas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euwgvoh5SE&eurl=

You neeeeeed to watch this clip because you are about to be among us heathens.
I'm at school, so I can't. How about you tell me what its about and then I'll respond to it.

[gen3tic]

I'm at school, so I can't. How about you tell me what its about and then I'll respond to it.
Google North American Union and related topics and you can find all kinds of information on this subject.

[gen3tic]

Edited for space

OK so in a panic filled class room where everyone has a gun, how many innocents that where attempting to be the hero are gonna get shot too? Quick! The room is in chaos! Everyone pull out your guns and start firing! I mean... SOMEONE will eventually shoot him... right?

And furthermore, Who's to say that Joe isn't gonna piss Bill off and Bill's not gonna shoot Joe saying, "well he had a gun too.... I was just defending myself." If everyone had guns then Bill just got away with murder.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/xp-21770

A person with proper training and licenses was denied the ability to carry a gun with him. They wouldn't have been just randomly shooting hoping to hit something.

[Grindrolas]

Google North American Union and related topics and you can find all kinds of information on this subject.
Good to know that Americans have no concept of how our government works.

That is a GIANT change, one that would require OUR people to be ok with it. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Our current Prime Minister, Harper, is VERY pro-American. He's the only one I see supporting this out of ALL Canadian politicians. Guess where that stops? HE HAS A MINORITY GOVERNMENT. Now for those of you that haven't taken the time to learn how the Canadian government works, when there is a minority government little to nothing gets changed. Its our way of protecting ourselves from major changes by people who don't have the majority in mind. The points made by this video (which I'm being told include the borders not being enforced, and corporations backing politicians campaigns etc.) are MOOT. We don't have nearly as many issues with corporations dictating a politicians platform that our neighbours to the south do.

The person that made this video, and consequently those of you who think it will happen are VERY uninformed about your neighbours to the north.

[HooB]

I would reallt feel bad for canada and mexico if they were to merge with usa since I really dont think they would like to be pranoid wack-jobs like the americans where a simple depression can lead to a mass homocide at any given time and place.

[Grindrolas]

I would reallt feel bad for canada and mexico if they were to merge with usa since I really dont think they would like to be pranoid wack-jobs like the americans where a simple depression can lead to a mass homocide at any given time and place.
If it happens, can I come live with my favourite bitter dwarf? :p

[HooB]

If it happens, can I come live with my favourite bitter dwarf? :p

Only if you bring your robe and wizard hat :p

[Grindrolas]

Only if you bring your robe and wizard hat :p
DEAL!

[Articula]

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. The lowest crime rates (in the US) are in areas where most of the citizens carry guns believe it or not. I will try to dig up some stats.


There is the key to this entire argument. In the US!!! We have never tried gun control on a mass scale as Britain has. Instead we've just sat on our patsy ass politicians hands and continued to see carnage. Zeb and Wig put it best, you outlaw guns in the entire country, and you get results like Britain has. 170 deaths in a year vs. 30,000 deaths in a year, no comparison!

The bullshit of this is the NRA and all activist lobbying groups with mucho dollars will not allow the US to have stricter (sp?) gun control laws. While other activist lobbying groups want full gun control laws. Being stuck in the middle is the worst place imo, and like most things in America, because of our fucked political system, we are stuck in the middle.

Also, this gun had a clip that could carry 33 bullets. WTF mate? No law obiding citizen needs a semi-automatic handgun that can shoot 33 bullets before needing to reload. Get rid of the fucking automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Maybe someone would have had a chance to tackle the fucker when he had to reload. Instead he went about spraying bullets and killing 32 people.

[Articula]

And while were at it, lets see how much press 178 Iraqi's dying to 33 Americans dying gets. The media in this country is so fucked.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Will I'm sure you know who he is. What do you think of Glen Beck?

[Talorth]

All I can say about NAFTA is,

FUCK YOU BRIAN MULRONEY.

[Articula]

All I can say about NAFTA is,

FUCK YOU BRIAN MULRONEY.

I don't even want to touch that mistake. GG Mr. Clinton

[HooB]

To put some perspective to this whole feeling safe issue.
We here in sweden dont have guns, we have at the most three rifles for hunting or sport puropses if you want a forth you have to make some tests and get an evaluation and have a great fucking reason why you want one more.

Do I feel unsecure becuase I know that some of my neighbours have a hunting rifile? No not really since I know when it is used and why it is used. Would I feel unsafe if the same person owned a handgun? I would think it was strange since and maybe feel abit unconfortable becuase handguns really only have one use, but I might not feel totaly unsafe.
But the real question is if I would feel unsafe if my strange neighbour got a handgun and if I would feel safer if when I knew he had a gun went out and got one for myself so I could shoot him when he had shot me (logic will prevail).

The biggest amount of safeness I would feel is probably when noone has a gun, even if you are a lawful citisen you can always snap or your gun could missfire or get stolen or a thousand other things could go wrong and someone might get hurt or die.
Trying to get more safe by getting more guns is like putting out a fire with more fire.

[gen3tic]

Where'd you see that the gun had 33 bullets? He had two guns with him.

And I still haven't seen anyone respond to why gun crime went up following the gun laws in the UK, and continues to go up from what I can find.

I pointed this out and will again, everybody is running around talking about automatic weapons. Until you have researched the requirements for owning/buying/selling automatic weapons, I wouldn't just lump them in with everything else. They exist and can be owned, but it is not a cheap or simple process to have one legally.

[Talorth]

It's nice to know there are people in the states that hate it too.(NAFTA)

[Articula]

Where'd you see that the gun had 33 bullets? He had two guns with him.

And I still haven't seen anyone respond to why gun crime went up following the gun laws in the UK, and continues to go up from what I can find.

I pointed this out and will again, everybody is running around talking about automatic weapons. Until you have researched the requirements for owning/buying/selling automatic weapons, I wouldn't just lump them in with everything else. They exist and can be owned, but it is not a cheap or simple process to have one legally.

Who cares about cheap? This kid would have spent his life savings to do what he did, because it didn't matter in the end...he killed himself. It was obviously easy enough for him to attain a gun and do this. Why not making it extremely harsh, as in Britain. Lets see him do this with an old six shooter. As soon as he was ready to reload I would have been the first one in that room rushing his ass.

[Talorth]

Why would someone with the intention of mass homocide care about the legality of weapon ownership?

He could of just as easily bought one on the black market (Which is where, in my opinion, that something needs to be at least attempted.). Crack down on this black market crap!

[Will]

I kinda lol'ed at this.. Tell me please.. What would kill you personally first... Me gorging my self on Twinkies till I had a heart attack because I'm an outcast of society and you picked on me, or me pointing a gun at you and pulling the trigger because I'm an outcast of society and you picked on me?

Twinkies weren't created with the intention of killing.. Cars weren't made with the intention of killing.. Why where hand guns made? To hunt with? No. As a means to kill another human, be it by murder or self defense.

1. Heart disease 1 in 6... Is said to be a self created issue due to unhealthy living habits.

2. Cancer 1 in 7... can be argued that its a self created issue due to an unhealthy lifestyle.

3. Stroke 1 in 24... See above...

4. Motor vehicle accident... 1 in 84

5. Suicide. 1 in 119... The odds of this double in a household that owns guns than one that does not.

6. Falling... wtf? 1 in 218

7. Firearm assault 1 in 314. hmmmm

ok so... this proves what exactly? I will die of a brain bleed before I get shot? Brain bleed = issue within my own body.. Cancer is the same.. Heart disease the same.. The fact is, most of these are issues are some what in that individuals personal control. Fire arm assault is not. Which do you see being the more practical thing to take away... Peoples Guns or Peoples Cars...



OK so in a panic filled class room where everyone has a gun, how many innocents that where attempting to be the hero are gonna get shot too? Quick! The room is in chaos! Everyone pull out your guns and start firing! I mean... SOMEONE will eventually shoot him... right?

And furthermore, Who's to say that Joe isn't gonna piss Bill off and Bill's not gonna shoot Joe saying, "well he had a gun too.... I was just defending myself." If everyone had guns then Bill just got away with murder.

Would you agree that a dead person is a dead person? What difference does it make if you ingest poisons (purchased legally) that eventually lead to your demise or you get shot. Either way, you are dead. If your argument is intended to protect life then you should focus on the other areas besides gun control. Death by twinkies/cigarettes is just as unnecessary as death by gunshot. The only difference is the amount of time it takes you to be killed (by the many poisons approved by the FDA) that we ingest everyday.

[damme]

And I still haven't seen anyone respond to why gun crime went up following the gun laws in the UK, and continues to go up from what I can find.

What about deaths by guns? Up or down?

[gen3tic]

The problem with obtaining an automatic weapon goes way beyond cheap. For the record, he did reload multiple times according to eye witness accounts, articles, medical examiners etc.

In case all of you missed this fact in the news coverage, he bought the first gun in February. February is a far cry from what most people seem to think he just bought it the day before his rampage. I'm pretty sure from February to now he would have had plenty of time to come up with something equally or more devastating.

[Grog]

Would you agree that a dead person is a dead person? What difference does it make if you ingest poisons (purchased legally) that eventually lead to your demise or you get shot. Either way, you are dead. If your argument is intended to protect life then you should focus on the other areas besides gun control. Death by twinkies/cigarettes is just as unnecessary as death by gunshot. The only difference is the amount of time it takes you to be killed (by the many poisons approved by the FDA) that we ingest everyday.
there's also that twinkies aren't made to kill people and handguns are?

[Emillia]

Would you agree that a dead person is a dead person? What difference does it make if you ingest poisons (purchased legally) that eventually lead to your demise or you get shot. Either way, you are dead. If your argument is intended to protect life then you should focus on the other areas besides gun control. Death by twinkies/cigarettes is just as unnecessary as death by gunshot. The only difference is the amount of time it takes you to be killed (by the many poisons approved by the FDA) that we ingest everyday.

What I'm saying is that it was my Brothers personal choice to eat twinkies and smoke cigarettes(which he didn't btw, just proving a point). It was not his personal decision to be killed by someone who got their gun thru an unregulated hand gun sale.

And no, I do not agree that a dead person is a dead person. If I chose to eat myself to death that is by my choice. If i am shot by another person.. it is obviously NOT my choice.

EDIT: Not to mention that I can stop smoking/eating twinkies any time.. If I'm shot and killed.. its kinda final..

[Grindrolas]

And I still haven't seen anyone respond to why gun crime went up following the gun laws in the UK, and continues to go up from what I can find.
Zeb did address this somewhere, I believe he stated that a lot of "gun" crime involves fake/replica guns, I could be very wrong though.

[Will]

there's also that twinkies aren't made to kill people and handguns are?

Guns aren't made to kill people, they are made to shoot projectiles at a high rate of speed. It's humans that decide to put them to that use.

[Will]

What I'm saying is that it was my Brothers personal choice to eat twinkies and smoke cigarettes(which he didn't btw, just proving a point). It was not his personal decision to be killed by someone who got their gun thru an unregulated hand gun sale.

And no, I do not agree that a dead person is a dead person. If I chose to eat myself to death that is by my choice. If i am shot by another person.. it is obviously NOT my choice.

My point is that all kinds of things are deadly and some are more deadly then others. Guns are not inherently deadly, they become deadly when someone uses one for that purpose. If you want to stop people from being senselessly killed by guns, take a look at what causes the behavior, not the weapon of choice. You are focusing on the weeds and not the root cause. Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

[Talorth]

But they were made by humans under the assumption that they would be made to kill people. (Modern Weaponry.)

[Will]

But they were made by humans under the assumption that they would be made to kill people. (Modern Weaponry.)

Not necessarily, some people do hunt with guns (animals I mean).

[Emillia]

Guns aren't made to kill people, they are made to shoot projectiles at a high rate of speed. It's humans that decide to put them to that use.

Give me 1 practical use of a hand gun? Other than for up close combat...

[Talorth]

Not necessarily, some people do hunt with guns (animals I mean).

Are you going to use a hand gun to hunt? Or a shot gun? Both those weapons make the meat worthless alot of the time. Making hunting practically worthless unless of course for sport.

[Grog]

lol reminds me of collateral "i didn't kill him, bullets and the fall killed him"

[Emillia]

Are you going to use a hand gun to hunt? Or a shot gun? Both those weapons make the meat worthless alot of the time. Making hunting practically worthless unless of course for sport.

EXACTLY. <3

[Will]

Give me 1 practical use of a hand gun? Other than for up close combat...

Imagine you are home alone and a male intruder comes in through your bedroom window. Can you imagine a practical use for a handgun? How about a deterrent to rape. If he sees you pointing a gun at him what do you think he is going to do? He is gonna climb right back out that window and run away.

Deterrent does not equal close combat...it equals protection.

[Grindrolas]

HEY GUYZ, WHEN I HUNT MAI DEERZ I WALK RIGHT UP TO DEM AND BOOM IN TEH HED!

[Grindrolas]

Imagine you are home alone and a male intruder comes in through your bedroom window. Can you imagine a practical use for a handgun? How about a deterrent to rape. If he sees you pointing a gun at him what do you think he is going to do? He is gonna climb right back out that window and run away.

Deterrent does not equal close combat...it equals protection.
So you arm yourself out of fear.

[gen3tic]

Are you going to use a hand gun to hunt? Or a shot gun? Both those weapons make the meat worthless alot of the time. Making hunting practically worthless unless of course for sport.

Have you ever hunted birds (geese, ducks, etc) with a rifle? Let me know how that works out for you.

[Grindrolas]

Have you ever hunted birds (geese, ducks, etc) with a rifle? Let me know how that works out for you.
Do you hunt birds with a hand gun?

[Emillia]

Imagine you are home alone and a male intruder comes in through your bedroom window. Can you imagine a practical use for a handgun? How about a deterrent to rape. If he sees you pointing a gun at him what do you think he is going to do? He is gonna climb right back out that window and run away.

Deterrent does not equal close combat...it equals protection.

Thats what I have dogs for. Thats what I have a husband for. Thats why we have phone to call for help. Thats why we have cell phones. Thats why I have doors and windows that lock. Who am I to take the law into my own hand and assume that any guy that comes to my door is hell bent on raping me?

So you arm yourself out of fear.

This is unfortunately how most of the ignoramus that live here feel. Seriously. If you don't feel safe where you live... maybe ya should move.

[Emillia]

Have you ever hunted birds (geese, ducks, etc) with a rifle? Let me know how that works out for you.

Shot gun... with bird shot.... Thats how it works

My argument is not with hunting guns.. its with Hand Guns which have no business being in the hand of any citizen.

[Archaos]

You can't honestly think that your husband and cell phone can better protect you at that exact moment then a firearm. I would never own a firearm, I've never shot a gun in my life, but to say that is just being ignorant.

[Emillia]

You can't honestly think that your husband and cell phone can better protect you at that exact moment then a firearm. I would never own a firearm, I've never shot a gun in my life, but to say that is just being ignorant.


Not ignorant no.. What I'm saying is that I will not arm myself out of fear when I have other means to feel safe and protected. And I know without a doubt that my husband would die trying to prevent me from being raped. Which would give me time to 1.escape or 2. get help.

I don't need a weapon to feel safe.

[Grindrolas]

You can't honestly think that your husband and cell phone can better protect you at that exact moment then a firearm. I would never own a firearm, I've never shot a gun in my life, but to say that is just being ignorant.
she isn't saying that, what she is saying is that assuming that every person that comes to her house isn't there to threaten her.

Arming yourself "just in case" isn't protecting yourself, its living in fear of other people, which is a pretty shitty way to live.

[Archaos]

I'm glad your husband has to die instead of you simply scaring off the criminal.

You're so right, your way is so much better for both parties.

[Archaos]

I'm so about to get gang banged in this thread.

[Emillia]

I'm glad your husband has to die instead of you simply scaring off the criminal.

You're so right, your way is so much better for both parties.

Ass hat.. What I'm saying and what you KNOW I MEANT was that if the guy "breaking into my house" was hell bent on raping me, I would still feel somewhat protected WITHOUT A FUCKING HAND GUN because of my husbands presence and because I know what he would do to prevent it.

There are OTHER means of feeling protected other than arming yourself to the gills.

[Archaos]

I realize this, I wouldn't personally own a gun ever, but I'm not about to take that choice away from people who wish to.

[Grog]

I'm so about to get gang banged in this thread.
rofl

[LinnEva]

guns are indirectly killing themondrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Will]

So you arm yourself out of fear.

I don't have to necessarily fear something to prepare for it. Fear is not what motivates me. Common sense preparedness does.

[Will]

Not ignorant no.. What I'm saying is that I will not arm myself out of fear when I have other means to feel safe and protected. And I know without a doubt that my husband would die trying to prevent me from being raped. Which would give me time to 1.escape or 2. get help.

I don't need a weapon to feel safe.

Wouldn't you rather your husband survive and not have to get himself killed in order to protect you?

[Grindrolas]

Wow, I can't believe the lot of you, who protect this way of life, and say you need a gun to protect yourself. You act like people are inherently evil. A percentage of people lack morals, and make poor decisions, but people as a whole are NOT evil.

Will, the way you speak, you come across like something bad WILL happen.

[Medicalelf]

When we first move to our new house, my husband have to go to Dallas for 1 week for a class. The first thing that he showed me was where he put the gun and he showed me how to use it. He told me to use it if somebody will intrude in our house and just "aim and shoot" and don't hesitate to do it. And I said ok honey, I will :D. There is nothing wrong in owning one, people just need to be educated when it comes to it. I see something wrong with parents who give toy guns to their kids to play though.

[Zelandra]

I don't like America's gun laws, but this would still have happened even if there was a ban on guns.

It's hella easy to get a gun, no matter what country you're in, as long as you know the right people.

I guarantee you that I could travel to any of the countries of the world and get a gun without any problems.

It's a fucking shame though, I have friends that go to VT, and they're all engineers. I was freaking the fuck out.

[Grog]

in the end, how does argueing on a forum actually affect it?

[Will]

Wow, I can't believe the lot of you, who protect this way of life, and say you need a gun to protect yourself. You act like people are inherently evil. A percentage of people lack morals, and make poor decisions, but people as a whole are NOT evil.

Will, the way you speak, you come across like something bad WILL happen.

I tend to hope for the best but I prepare for the worst. It's been working for me so far :P

I believe people are inherently good; I also believe that a host of factors can turn a good person into a homicidal maniac. What it takes to produce that effect varies by person. I see nothing wrong with being prepared (not living in fear). I learned that in the boy scouts actually.

[Will]

in the end, how does argueing on a forum actually affect it?

How does arguing about anything anywhere change anything? Arguing on a forum allows people to state their opinions so that others may examine, flame, act like retards, give soapbox speeches, and basically fluff their egos....what's wrong with that?

[Grog]

nothing wrong with it, just thought people needed reminding of it :>

[Cilus]

What we really need is an army of Spartans at our disposal.

But seirously, growing up we had rifles in our house because we actually hunted, not out of protection. But we also had machetes and hunting knifes that could slice through any thing we hunted/person that tried to harm us. They're weapons that can protect you in your home if need be.

Granted, I know that you can't really go on a killing rampage with a machete unless people think they're in a bad horror movie and just stand there.

[Talorth]

Wouldn't you rather your husband survive and not have to get himself killed in order to protect you?

What if the intruder had a gun? It's not always one sided, if he had a gun you'd be unable to get the gun anyways. Unless of course you keep one in every drawer or something LOL, but quite frankly i'd feel much more unsafe like that.


Also, alot of those gun related accidents involve people coming to the door to just ask questions. There was a case where a student knocked on someone's door to ask for directions and he got shot and killed for it. (Isn't it legal in some states since your on people's property or something?)


I don't get it, it's just like nature. People always harbor this fear that some cougar or bear is going to come out of the woods and kill you. Even if you did come across either of those animals, it's unlikely they would go after you. Unless they are afraid, or protecting their young.

I'm just saying that sometimes those fears are very irrational, and more people die from the irrationality of it than the actual thing to be afraid of.

[HooB]

just "aim and shoot" and don't hesitate to do it.

And you are 110% sure that you could do that without hesitating? Are you 110% sure that when you stand there face to face with a burgler you are not hesitating to take his life. I so think not you and 99% of all others who own a gun in usa are 110% sure they could do that without hesitating.

*edit* I also hope that you'll never be in that situation MediElf <3

[damme]

Imagine you are home alone and a male intruder comes in through your bedroom window. Can you imagine a practical use for a handgun? How about a deterrent to rape. If he sees you pointing a gun at him what do you think he is going to do? He is gonna climb right back out that window and run away.

Deterrent does not equal close combat...it equals protection.

So what you're saying is a prop would do equally fine. No need for a gun then.

[Medicalelf]

And you are 110% sure that you could do that without hesitating? Are you 110% sure that when you stand there face to face with a burgler you are not hesitating to take his life. I so think not you and 99% of all others who own a gun in usa are 110% sure they could do that without hesitating.

*edit* I also hope that you'll never be in that situation MediElf <3

I was once being violated and I will not let that happen again. This is how I program my mind if somebody is trying to kill me or harm me inside my house. I have every right to kill that person legally. I have to kill him before he kills me or before he kills other people.

[Will]

What if the intruder had a gun? It's not always one sided, if he had a gun you'd be unable to get the gun anyways. Unless of course you keep one in every drawer or something LOL, but quite frankly i'd feel much more unsafe like that.


Also, alot of those gun related accidents involve people coming to the door to just ask questions. There was a case where a student knocked on someone's door to ask for directions and he got shot and killed for it. (Isn't it legal in some states since your on people's property or something?)


I don't get it, it's just like nature. People always harbor this fear that some cougar or bear is going to come out of the woods and kill you. Even if you did come across either of those animals, it's unlikely they would go after you. Unless they are afraid, or protecting their young.

I'm just saying that sometimes those fears are very irrational, and more people die from the irrationality of it than the actual thing to be afraid of.

Listen, there are a myriad of situations where I wouldn't pull out my pistol. The point is if you are going to carry a firearm you have to constantly assess the situation. Above all you have to maintain certain safety standards when carrying a weapon. This isn't apparent to you because you have never been instructed on how to fire a weapon (just a guess). It isn't just, I have a weapon so I'm gonna shoot someone.

Ideally, you would receive detailed instruction on exactly how to handle a weapon before ever being in a position to draw and fire it. You would train with it in different scenarios. You would shoot the hell out of paper targets because pistols are notoriously inaccurate to begin with. You would learn how to breath, relax, aim and squeeze. You would practice target recognition. You would live and breath the firearm safety rules. That's how I would guess most people who are gun advocates approach firearms (responsibly anyway).

A responsible carrier of firearms, in a situation like what happened at VaTech, is your very best friend; he may save your life. Or, the alternative is to bend over and HOPE you don't have to kiss your ass goodbye.

[Will]

So what you're saying is a prop would do equally fine. No need for a gun then.

Go for it if you got the juevos :p

[Will]

I was once being violated and I will not let that happen again. This is how I program my mind if somebody is trying to kill me or harm me inside my house. I have every right to kill that person legally. I have to kill him before he kills me or before he kills other people.

QFT

[Zebedee]

I already covered the irrelevance of the UK "gun crime" figures. Those figures include crimes which are committed using replica weapons, toy weapons or even someone with a banana in a paper bag pretending to have a handgun. When your victim doesn't have a gun, you know you won't get shot for robbing them, ergo you don't need a real gun to rob them, just something to scare them. The flipside is people are less paranoid about being robbed because they know they are unlikely to get hurt in the process. It's been illegal for decades to carry a loaded gun about in public anyway so it's not like civilians were shooting shit up before the total ban.

The UK figures went crazy from the late 90's on because people were able to purchase replica guns on the internet, relatively cheaply, from mainland Europe. The media love a good murder or gang killing and probably go a long way to exacerbating the inner city problems at the moment. They even name the gangs involved so it becomes a serious "respect" issue when one gang is mentioned on the news other gangs up their violence so they can be mentioned too. I remember my friends in my late teens doing all sorts of dumb shit to try and get on Crimewatch (a crime re-enactment show where they would ask the public for help in solving crimes).

Trying to compare the 2001 report that someone quoted to the problems in America is chalk and cheese. Look at the amount of people that get killed or wounded due to firearms each year in the States compared to the UK, then come back and tell me how it's more dangerous not to have guns...

And Will, you can write whatever you want, I stopped responding directly to any posts by you or monroe a long time ago.

[Zebedee]

I was once being violated and I will not let that happen again. This is how I program my mind if somebody is trying to kill me or harm me inside my house. I have every right to kill that person legally. I have to kill him before he kills me or before he kills other people.

What if he just wants to steal your tv?

[johkai]

KILL, because the TV and couch is the soul of any true american patriot!

[Will]

I already covered the irrelevance of the UK "gun crime" figures. Those figures include crimes which are committed using replica weapons, toy weapons or even someone with a banana in a paper bag pretending to have a handgun. When your victim doesn't have a gun, you know you won't get shot for robbing them, ergo you don't need a real gun to rob them, just something to scare them. The flipside is people are less paranoid about being robbed because they know they are unlikely to get hurt in the process. It's been illegal for decades to carry a loaded gun about in public anyway so it's not like civilians were shooting shit up before the total ban.

Well, I must say, you seem to have the criminal mind pegged. Good show ol boy. However, what happened at Va Tech was not a robbery, it was a mass killing spree.

The UK figures went crazy from the late 90's on because people were able to purchase replica guns on the internet, relatively cheaply, from mainland Europe. The media love a good murder or gang killing and probably go a long way to exacerbating the inner city problems at the moment. They even name the gangs involved so it becomes a serious "respect" issue when one gang is mentioned on the news other gangs up their violence so they can be mentioned too. I remember my friends in my late teens doing all sorts of dumb shit to try and get on Crimewatch (a crime re-enactment show where they would ask the public for help in solving crimes).

Your media, my media, they all fear-monger. They do it in different ways in different places but the bottom line is always the same. Fear.

Trying to compare the 2001 report that someone quoted to the problems in America is chalk and cheese. Look at the amount of people that get killed or wounded due to firearms each year in the States compared to the UK, then come back and tell me how it's more dangerous not to have guns...

Well, your cheekiness aside, if you are going to compare AMOUNTS then you had better start with factoring in the obvious fact that the US has many times the population/land mass/and density your country has.

And Will, you can write whatever you want, I stopped responding directly to any posts by you or monroe a long time ago.

Well thank you for that, I appreciate your allowance and tolerance. Truth be told, I wouldn't acknowledge you at all if you hadn't referred to me in your post. Have a nice day. :-D

[Will]

KILL, because the TV and couch is the soul of any true american patriot!

Why couldn't you have been at Va Tech?

[johkai]

im destined to do great things.

[johkai]

Well, I must say, you seem to have the criminal mind pegged. Good show ol boy. However, what happened at Va Tech was not a robbery, it was a mass killing spree.
which is NOT a crime!

[griefingtrash]

So you arm yourself out of fear.



no your arm yourself out of being prepared....

[griefingtrash]

Wow, I can't believe the lot of you, who protect this way of life, and say you need a gun to protect yourself. You act like people are inherently evil. A percentage of people lack morals, and make poor decisions, but people as a whole are NOT evil.

Will, the way you speak, you come across like something bad WILL happen.


grindolas.. incidents like columbine and vtech or enough reason to own a handgun. its clear cut proof that incidents do occur and better to be prepared then to not be prepared. am i afraid of columbine incident happening? absolutly not. am i willing to think ahead and just be prepared for the day of a possable incident sure. the decision ends there. it will not be brought up again until(if ever) the time comes to draw my firearm to protect others or myself.

[johkai]

grindolas.. incidents like columbine and vtech or enough reason to own a handgun
no its reason enough to disarm an entire nation. except law enforcements and the military ofc.

[Damarus]

Would you agree that a dead person is a dead person? What difference does it make if you ingest poisons (purchased legally) that eventually lead to your demise or you get shot. Either way, you are dead. If your argument is intended to protect life then you should focus on the other areas besides gun control. Death by twinkies/cigarettes is just as unnecessary as death by gunshot. The only difference is the amount of time it takes you to be killed (by the many poisons approved by the FDA) that we ingest everyday.Yes, because I totally agree that someone dooming themselves to fatal health problems by poisoning their own body is the same as SOMEONE ELSE buying a gun from walmart and shooting the people you love and cherish while they were innocently at a grocery store or walking home from work one night or fuck knows when you americans find it most pleasurable to kill one another.

[griefingtrash]

no its reason enough to disarm an entire nation. except law enforcements and the military ofc.


in your oppinion

[Jadein]

I just spent an hour reading this thread ....

Grog, arguing about it on a forum can help your or me or Zeb or who the hell ever figure out exactly what thier stance is on something ... it can help clarify thier own thinking. Honestly, that's what Emillia did for me.

The whole thing at VATech is just sick and disgusting and sad. What some of you might not know (because the media is a bitch and people need to realize that not everything on the news or the interweb is fully reported or even true) .... this guy killed a man who was one of the best engineers in the country, possibly the world ... and he was someone who was coming very close to a possible cure for ceribal palsy. This kid killed a Holocust survivor. For what??

Guns do not make you safe people. I am American and I to have grown up around guns. I live in Wisconsin and am born into a family that loves to hunt and fish. My cousin is a deputy sheriff. Guns don't scare me, but I know that having one will not protect me from bad things. What will save me from an intruder in my home?? Staying calm, not being affraid ... keeping my wits about me so that I can think of smart ways to fight back ... normal household items make great weapons. Anyone who hasn't seen the movie Enough with Jennifer Lopez in it ... needs to. She kicked her dead beat abusive husbands ass in that movie and never, not once shot a fire at him. So Will your theory on women need guns to protect themselves is bullshit. I don't need a gun and in fact I don't need my husband or anyone else to protect me .... I need my smarts and knowledge of how to protect myself WITHOUT assistance of any kind. Ohhh, I forgot to mention, my uncle commited suicide when he was 19 years old with a 12-guage sawed off shot gun .... blew a hole right through his own stomach ... the shot gun was my grandpas and my uncle sawed the barrel off to make sure the job was done right.

I am not for all out banning of guns either ... but I do agree with Emillia and I do agree with Zeb and Wig .... America needs a blanketed gun control law for the WHOLE country and it needs to get handguns out of the hands of regular everyday citizens .... Will if you are so hellbent on protecting yourself from intruders and what not with a fire arm ... Rifles and hunting equipment can still do that ... you don't need semi-automatic guns or handguns to do that.

[griefingtrash]

I just spent an hour reading this thread ....

Grog, arguing about it on a forum can help your or me or Zeb or who the hell ever figure out exactly what thier stance is on something ... it can help clarify thier own thinking. Honestly, that's what Emillia did for me.

The whole thing at VATech is just sick and disgusting and sad. What some of you might not know (because the media is a bitch and people need to realize that not everything on the news or the interweb is fully reported or even true) .... this guy killed a man who was one of the best engineers in the country, possibly the world ... and he was someone who was coming very close to a possible cure for ceribal palsy. This kid killed a Holocust survivor. For what??

Guns do not make you safe people. I am American and I to have grown up around guns. I live in Wisconsin and am born into a family that loves to hunt and fish. My cousin is a deputy sheriff. Guns don't scare me, but I know that having one will not protect me from bad things. What will save me from an intruder in my home?? Staying calm, not being affraid ... keeping my wits about me so that I can think of smart ways to fight back ... normal household items make great weapons. Anyone who hasn't seen the movie Enough with Jennifer Lopez in it ... needs to. She kicked her dead beat abusive husbands ass in that movie and never, not once shot a fire at him. So Will your theory on women need guns to protect themselves is bullshit. I don't need a gun and in fact I don't need my husband or anyone else to protect me .... I need my smarts and knowledge of how to protect myself WITHOUT assistance of any kind. Ohhh, I forgot to mention, my uncle commited suicide when he was 19 years old with a 12-guage sawed off shot gun .... blew a hole right through his own stomach ... the shot gun was my grandpas and my uncle sawed the barrel off to make sure the job was done right.

I am not for all out banning of guns either ... but I do agree with Emillia and I do agree with Zeb and Wig .... America needs a blanketed gun control law for the WHOLE country and it needs to get handguns out of the hands of regular everyday citizens .... Will if you are so hellbent on protecting yourself from intruders and what not with a fire arm ... Rifles and hunting equipment can still do that ... you don't need semi-automatic guns or handguns to do that.

new hampshire has some of the most lenient gun laws and the death rate via handguns is almost nonexistent.

[Grindrolas]

Well, your cheekiness aside, if you are going to compare AMOUNTS then you had better start with factoring in the obvious fact that the US has many times the population/land mass/and density your country has.
Zeb has done EXACTLY that NUMEROUS times...
I just spent an hour reading this thread ....

Grog, arguing about it on a forum can help your or me or Zeb or who the hell ever figure out exactly what thier stance is on something ... it can help clarify thier own thinking. Honestly, that's what Emillia did for me.

The whole thing at VATech is just sick and disgusting and sad. What some of you might not know (because the media is a bitch and people need to realize that not everything on the news or the interweb is fully reported or even true) .... this guy killed a man who was one of the best engineers in the country, possibly the world ... and he was someone who was coming very close to a possible cure for ceribal palsy. This kid killed a Holocust survivor. For what??

Guns do not make you safe people. I am American and I to have grown up around guns. I live in Wisconsin and am born into a family that loves to hunt and fish. My cousin is a deputy sheriff. Guns don't scare me, but I know that having one will not protect me from bad things. What will save me from an intruder in my home?? Staying calm, not being affraid ... keeping my wits about me so that I can think of smart ways to fight back ... normal household items make great weapons. Anyone who hasn't seen the movie Enough with Jennifer Lopez in it ... needs to. She kicked her dead beat abusive husbands ass in that movie and never, not once shot a fire at him. So Will your theory on women need guns to protect themselves is bullshit. I don't need a gun and in fact I don't need my husband or anyone else to protect me .... I need my smarts and knowledge of how to protect myself WITHOUT assistance of any kind. Ohhh, I forgot to mention, my uncle commited suicide when he was 19 years old with a 12-guage sawed off shot gun .... blew a hole right through his own stomach ... the shot gun was my grandpas and my uncle sawed the barrel off to make sure the job was done right.

I am not for all out banning of guns either ... but I do agree with Emillia and I do agree with Zeb and Wig .... America needs a blanketed gun control law for the WHOLE country and it needs to get handguns out of the hands of regular everyday citizens .... Will if you are so hellbent on protecting yourself from intruders and what not with a fire arm ... Rifles and hunting equipment can still do that ... you don't need semi-automatic guns or handguns to do that.
Good post Jadien, nice to see that SOME Americans can think clearly, and beyond their constitution.
grindolas.. incidents like columbine and vtech or enough reason to own a handgun. its clear cut proof that incidents do occur and better to be prepared then to not be prepared. am i afraid of columbine incident happening? absolutly not. am i willing to think ahead and just be prepared for the day of a possable incident sure. the decision ends there. it will not be brought up again until(if ever) the time comes to draw my firearm to protect others or myself.
NO, this ISN'T proof that everyone should go out and buy a god damn hand gun. I don't own one, and if something like this were to happen at my school, I (like Jadien) would count on my smarts, and wits, to get myself out of that situation alive. If someone is HELLBENT on killing me, I've either wronged them in some way, or they've got serious mental issues.

AGAIN, I put this question out there for all of you saying everyone should carry a hand gun. If this kid couldn't obtain a weapon as easily as he did, would his anger have turned into violence? NONE of you have answered that question and I'd honestly like to know your opinion

[CharlieM]

I'm gonna say this as plainly as I can, so it doesn't hurt any brains.

Everyone who wants to keep the constitutional right to bear arms, and not make it harder for psychotics to get their hands on deadly firearms, are fucked in the head.

It honestly does not make any sense whatsoever.

The job of the police is to ensure that laws are upheld.
If you bring in gun control laws, and incentives to buy-back current illegal firearms (and future outlawed weapons), then it is the responsibility of the police (chiefly the ATFE) to maintain that law. There needs to be a process which people go through to obtain a firearm that would weed out the psychologically unstable people like we have in Australia. There then needs to be tight restrictions on the type of firearm you purchase, like we have in Australia.

No semi-automatics, no Full automatics, no explosives, and nothing over 5.56mm round.
If you are purchasing hollow point you need to submit to higher scrutiny.

This makes it a LOT harder for nut jobs to get their hands on a gun, in return, the necessity to carry one for self defence is lowered. Prevention is the cure for fuck sake, ideally you want to stop cancer from even growing.

Will, I thought you to be of a politically and logical sound mind, but what in the fuck is wrong with you ?

The constitution was drafted at a time when there was no military to protect from foreign invaders, and no police to protect from civil disobedience. The right to bear arms was a pre-cursor to setting up both of those institutions, to enable the nation as a whole to defend itself in the absence of a legal and judiciary system, and a military.

YOU NOW HAVE BOTH AN ARMY, AND A POLICE FORCE.

The right to bear arms should of been scrubbed out of the constitution in the 50's for christ sake.
We have had one mass shooting in Australia in our 200 odd year history, and this was before we had our gun reforms. Gun related crimes are almost non-existent in this country, and it is because we have basically made it impossible for anyone to get a firearm unless they pass a hell of a lot of tests designed to weed out psychotics, and limiting the amount of damage they could then do with the firearms available.

Sure, there is always a black market, again, this is what the Police is for.

Vigilantism is a surefire way to a country set in anarchy.

If this kid had to jump through a million hoops to get a firearm and the system worked, his only recourse to obtain one would be from the black market. This is where the police step in. Any top rate police would have a keen eye on the black market, they would flag the guy as a potential nut case, and this would not of happned...of course this hinges on wether or not a LONER would have the contacts and resources to be able to get in touch with a black market seller of firearms. Highly fucking unlikely, and sure as hell a lot harder to do than just walking into the nearest wallmart and laying down 300 bux, no questions asked.

The preponderance for people, en` mass to be so fucking dumb in the face of logic and reason within the US is just outstanding. And I mean that in a horrific and terrifying way.

[Grindrolas]

:o is all I have to say, well said Charlie.

[CharlieM]

There are those out there who claim that without guns, we are still left with crooks running around with knives.

Ok, so say the kid had a knife.

How many do you think he would of mannaged to kill ?

3 ?
5 maximum ??